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  #31  
Old 02-26-2012, 06:56 PM
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Bill, I'll hazard a guess that the reason the OEM doesn't specify lube is that they know it's just not gonna happen in many cases. And for 99.9% of the users, that's perfectly fine.
In Jeff's application, I'd be just as concerned about torsional shear put into studs without lube on the threads as I would about stretch.
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  #32  
Old 02-26-2012, 08:22 PM
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Jeff needs a higher friction surface between the face of the wheel and the brake rotor. That, or bigger studs. Studs bend when the wheel slips on the mating face. The two ways to reduce slippage is increase clamp load (larger diameter studs torqued at the appropriate torque and therefore higher clamp load), or a higher coefficient of friction at the wheel/rotor interface. I have seen a washer impregnated with silica on crank hubs that are very effective at doing this. A two side sheet of sand paper would do this as well... I wonder if there is a "friction paper" type product out there.

Torquing is to get the proper stretch. If the stud calls for lube, then the proper stretch occurs at the torque spec with reduced friction on the threads... which mean a higher clamp load.

OEM torques are based on the first torque, the finish of the bolt and the coatings on the fasteners (many of the OEM fasteners have a dry coating with consistent lubricating properties). With the slippery nature of Moly lube, the mess it can make in a factory environment, and the slip hazard it creates, you can see why it's avoided as much as possible in the OEM realm.

If you want a more repeatable clamp load, Torque to Yield (aka TTY) fasteners offer the most consistent, non Moly-lubed alternative.

Pull out your textbooks and look at stress/strain diagrams, you'll see how the yield region of the curve has advantages. Naturally, I am not suggesting that you use a TTY arrangement for wheels studs... just that OEM's have good reasons for the way they do things..
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  #33  
Old 02-26-2012, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Navy Lifer View Post
Thanks Bill, I looked through several catalogs, including the Dorman stuff. Seems that it's not common to make a double ended stud with the same thread pitch on both ends, and an unthreaded portion to bottom out to.. every 1/2" stud I have found seems to have a 1/2-13 thread on the other side. I know i have seen some OEM M10/1.5mm double ended studs. Exhaust manifold- y-pipe studs come to mind, and are M10 on both sides.

what would be even cooler is a 1/2-20 side with a M12x1.5 side... but I have not found that yet... even better still is the dog point being an 8mm hex to make installing easier.. that would be the trifecta...

Best I have found are the Moser straight 1/2-20 studs. I'll probably end up ordering them with some Jam nuts and making a dog point on one side if I feel fancy..
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  #34  
Old 02-27-2012, 10:29 AM
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Michael, ARP can make whatever you want--just ask.

1/2-20 studs - a few sources for 3"--cut off the heads!

http://markwilliams.com/detail.aspx?ID=523

http://video.arp-bolts.com/catalog/ARPCatalog.pdf
Pg 68
PN 100-7704
3.47" under-head length

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ARP-100-7704/

Moser all-thread - 3"
http://www.moserengineering.com/othe...ll-thread.html

FWIW, the Sway-A-Way 14mm studs are available up to 100mm--usable thread length is about 3.25" after the head & knurl/shank portion is cut off.

1/2-20 thin lock nut - to install on back side of axle flange (will probably NOT clear park brake shoe)
http://www.mcmaster.com/#cadinlnord/94830a550/=gfk6ar

M14x1.5 lock nut (too thick?)
http://www.mcmaster.com/#cadinlnord/90576a147/=gfk802
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  #35  
Old 02-29-2012, 06:04 PM
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Well I think I have some answers but still not positive. There is a coating that is on the wheel studs that is not on the other bolts/studs you would buy. So Bill, you are correct that you should not need moly as the extra coating provides a moly type coating thats in a dry form.

The torque rate is what I'm not sure I'm geting the right answer. The first answer was 80 for a 12mm then I questioned what I had been told some years ago and the answer changed back to 100. As you all know when you use moly or anything like it your torque amount goes down so a stub/bolt with moly or a coating on it torqued at 100 is about the same as it being dry torqued at about 120.

So going down to 80 is going to make my problem worse if not lead to shear. The 12 mm studs have been torqued 100 times over the last 5 years so I'm staying with the 100 torque to create the clamping force.

For people on here that have not been involved in race for years you need to know it's not that odd to get different answers to the same question. I use to take people to the IRP show here in Indy each year and go to each piston company, JE or Venolia or whoever and ask them the same question. Which is a better setup, a longer rod length with a higher piston pin location or a shorter rod with a lower piston pin location. I would get conflicting answers everytime. It was my way to teach people, that had not been around racing, that even companies that make the same engine part can't agree on what the right answer is for the same race engine. The leason was you have to listen to the reasons from each of them and make your mind up who was right. You can agree a shorter rod creates more side load but moving the pin up upsets the piston so everyone argues their point on this topic.

The one engineer that I have talked to in the past for special bolts was not there. I will try to get him to answer these same questions and see if the answers change again.
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  #36  
Old 03-01-2012, 03:42 PM
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I'm not quite sure I get the value of the continued discussion. Even if you continue to use 12mm studs, for whatever reason, I consider the studs on your car now compromised. What CAUSED the bending can be argued, but for the application, don't keep using damaged parts.

I do wonder about the wheel aftermarket, which seems, nearly always, to quote lower torque values for (their) wheels than what OE specs are. Whether that is a lowest common denominator situation, with wheels that fit a multitude of applications with studs as small as 7/16", which DO specify a lower torque value than 12mm, or whether it's concern about the quality of their wheels when torqued beyond a certain value, and 100 lb/ft was not considered "safe" for their wheels. Could be mere supposition on my part.....

I do think Michael's comments are spot-on, and do a good job of taking what I'm thinking and TRYING to say and putting it through the engineer's mind and making the language match the reality of what is going on.

Regarding lube or no lube, my only concern is the need to have the studs properly tensioned to clamp everything as designed, which would preclude the possibility of the studs bending....personally, if a lube WAS to be used, I would go with a spray moly-lube "one time" and leave it at that....that is to say, continual re-application of lube would be excessive in "my world".
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Old 03-03-2012, 01:26 AM
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So if I decide to just stick with the stock 12mm diameter wheel studs is there a certain ARP part number/product line I would want to go with from the mentioning of ARP having higher quality bolts then the Moser versions?
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  #38  
Old 03-03-2012, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratman View Post
I was just wondering of those that have Moser axles what wheel studs did you go with?
I saw on Summit for Moser axles for my '96 SS it tries to recommend either 1.5 or 2.5in length press-in studs by Moser any benefit to going with the longer studs or would that just make it so I couldn't get my center covers on anymore?
I know I'm late to the game on this thread, but I had Moser install the studs prior to shipment (12MM), so I didn't have a thing to worry about when I did the axle R&R (For 9C1 rear).
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  #39  
Old 03-03-2012, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratman View Post
So if I decide to just stick with the stock 12mm diameter wheel studs is there a certain ARP part number/product line I would want to go with from the mentioning of ARP having higher quality bolts then the Moser versions?
I can't speak to any difference in quality between ARP and any other stud supplier, including Moser, but the "default" ARP stud that is most commonly used is PN 100-7708, which is a 5-pack.
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  #40  
Old 03-03-2012, 09:17 AM
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Default Wheel studs for Moser axles

The part number Bill listed (100-7708) is for 2.5" studs. ARP also offers 3.25" length studs (100-7713) which will fit under the stock caps.
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