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air pump delete...cant believe they called the state lol

4K views 44 replies 11 participants last post by  luckydriver 
#1 ·
this is crazy. my old garage closed last year so i'm taking it to the new one down the road where the old mechanic moved to (ie the guy is familiar with my car but i dont really know the guy). it's in for inspection today and they are questioning the delete. i sent him the TSB and he said he's called the state of PA to see what they say because the tsb came from GM and not the state..unsure why that matters

OMG i never heard of this, i cant believe they are this much a stickler and i am not happy! he agreed it can be disabled but made the argument that the stuff should be in there.. so here i sit like an expectant father waiting. i'm sure the state will come back to him (if at all) and say it has to be there so ill have to call around to see if others wont care.

craziness! i did save the parts but we know what fun it is putting all that back in. especially for just a day
 
#2 ·
You might get away with putting just some of it back in.
 
#3 ·
forgive the caps

PA SAID IT'S OK TO REMOVE THE SYSTEM!!!

i was in shock..so anyone from pennsylvania can do this! he told me 'it's ok to put on the emissions sticker' which was music to my ears!
 
#4 ·
Take it to a different place. I took mine to three different places before the smog guy let it go. It helps if you have the little TSB sticker. I also need to deal with headers passing with and have the carb sticker too. I go to a smaller smog garage, one that's a little more expensive and not as busy as the other chain ones. He's an old timer with his cigarette hangin out of his mouth and usually reading the paper. Garage unkept and dishelved. I figure this lazy attitude will naturally be a part of an unscrupulous visual inspection of my engine bay. Sorry if that seems like I'm profiling people, but you know what they say, "First impressions are often correct." We all do it whether we admit it or not. The important thing is to be polite to each other, especially with the smog police.
 
#5 ·
Did you mention it to them or did they notice the pump removed? If they noticed anything, I certainly wouldn't tell them about the mod. I would have just downplayed the whole thing like I knew nothing about it and ask them to see how it tests.

Find it hard that they would even notice. Removed mine years ago and never had the mechanic who does my inspections suspect a thing. I did remove the Tube too which if left in place may raise suspicion. I have even taken it to a couple of other shops over the years for inspections and never an issue. My car runs super clean and is always well below the max numbers allowed. In PA, typically if you pass the sniffer and the dyno, you are GTG. Never heard of them doing a vehicle specific Visual inspection.....sounds like Cali.

You should have just found another shop the second that this guy questioned anything and mentioned Harrisburg. Now that they have, they must have your VIN in their (Harrisburg/PENNDOT) system and possibly flagged for this. I hope they dont come back and give you grief over this. Cause technically, the GM process for doing this is to just disable the pump and NOT remove it.

How did the car smog out anyway?

Good Luck and keep us posted.
 
#7 ·
the mechanic noticed it and i hvae no control over the manager calling the state...he did that on his own. i'm sitting home comfy on my couch and couldnt grab the phone from him or anything lol and i had no idea he was even doing it until i called him 1 hour later and asked him if he got my fax

unsure what you mean about smog out...95 just is visual inspection and the issue was that the system wasnt there. also i asked him point blank if this means in future years i will be ok with him and he said yes. if he's that much a stickler to call the state he better darn well not go back on his word!
 
#9 ·
the mechanic noticed it and i hvae no control over the manager calling the state...he did that on his own. i'm sitting home comfy on my couch and couldnt grab the phone from him or anything lol and i had no idea he was even doing it until i called him 1 hour later and asked him if he got my fax

unsure what you mean about smog out...95 just is visual inspection and the issue was that the system wasnt there. also i asked him point blank if this means in future years i will be ok with him and he said yes. if he's that much a stickler to call the state he better darn well not go back on his word!
Didn't see your updated post , but it looks like it passed afterall....A win for us PA folk.

I pictured you in the waiting room and him saying "calling Harrisburg now to see if I can confirm this" and then you leaping out of the chair in slooooow Motion running toward him screaming, "Noooooo, hang up the phone" :)

At least it sounds like the Govment said, it was ok.

By "Smog out" I meant, did they actually test it anyway and what were the numbers from the exhaust, did it pass or Fail? But it sounds like you are ok now. I was just worried when I saw that cause you never know what some Wise Politician (oxymoron) is going to attempt next. You might not have been around when PA attempted the whole "EnviroTest" fiasco with a privately owned company doing all smog tests. It would have been a nightmare for drivers if that did not get shot down.
 
#8 ·
I do the emmissions checks... The fines we get for screwing up a test IS the reason why he called a QAO(Quality Assurance Officer). Better to be safe than fined. And I'm sure the conversation was short and sweet. He said parts are missing, but there is a tsb to disable and QAO said it's fine.. move on. The state quite often sends setup cars in to make sure people are doing the visual checks, so we pay pretty close attention to what is or isn't equipped on the car wether or not you know we looked for it.
 
#11 ·
never knew they did setup cars but the mechanic knew my car for sure as he's done tons of work on it in the past. so hope he knew i wasnt a plant
 
#10 ·
no anyone that waits for SI in PA is crazy...at least at my garage i dont even know if they would let you. never know what it would need etc. and thankfully no sniffer for the 95s cause i have no idea if i would pass or not. dont they just check the gas cap or something?

i do remember they paid hundreds of millions as a cancel penalty for the smog company before.
 
#12 ·
Some shops have waiting rooms. I had a car in for alignment at a shop in Downingtown and was waiting for it. It was close to being due for inspection, so I asked him to do it while I was there. Didn't take long and everything passed.

I have a 95 as well and there IS a sniffer test done. All cars need to have both a safety and emmisions test done. Each of those gets their own sticker that is applied to the windshield. I believe that only 74 and older are excempt from emissions test, but still require a safety inspection. Maybe Trouppe will chime in on this since he is a pa mechanic. I do remember certain counties like Lancaster never used to do emissions, yet Chester county did. Now I think all the counties require it. Heck, I remember when PA used to have inspection every 6 months. Not that I was driving then, but I remember that.
 
#15 ·
how did i know it wouldnt be this easy?

they called back and now penndot has to review it so he cant put the sticker on...i guess i hvae to find a lickit station lol.
 
#16 ·
FWIW the TSB says "disable", not "remove". By that wording the state views you can't delete it.

With that said most shops don't care as long as the car passes visual, plug in and tail pipe test. A problem we have here in Calif. is the 94-96 B-bodys are listed as "high emitter profile" cars so you have to go to a "test only" station. Those shops typically follow the book.

Part of the balance but I left mine on. 383/T56 with headers and CARB OBD2 CATS. I pass every time but the headers are CARB and air pump is functional. the car shows up as a "manual" transmission on the certificate printout. I don't volunter any information but have pointed out the various CARB stickers when tech says "air intake was modified" (K&N FIPK) and they back off. Tailpipe #'s have never been a issue
 
#17 ·
well i picked it up and he didnt have an answer for what they would do if i had been a will wait customer..he had a ticket number and everythign for that guy he talked to on the phone to confirm its ok

i think on that basis alone they should let me slide ;)
id put it on if it wasnt that hard but you guys know it's extraordinarily difficult to do ..
and if there was a way to rig it i would cut the pipe in half to make it easier but thats nt how the factory did it so i know they wont accept it lol
 
#18 ·
Actually,if you check the FSM they do recommend cutting the air-tube in half. Then re-connecting it with a length of hose.
 
#19 ·
oh interesting

so has anyone installed this back on the engine? i looked at my box of parts and it just doesnt seem fun at all. id make my friend do it since he helped take it off :) working in 30 degrees under a car is just not his idea of fun though so i doubt we coudl do it before the SI runs out
 
#20 ·
There are so many different level of what needs tested between counties and obd 1&2. Mostly only around philly and pittsburgh do cars need tailpipe or dyno testing. and that's for only the obd1 cars and some trucks based by weight class. They need to simplify the program, and could do so by just making it statewide visual, gas cap, and functioning check engine light. But then how simple would that be?

And as far as setup cars, we generally see them 1 or 2 times a year. usually they disconnect the egr, or unplug some of the vgacuum hoses. Then try to play it off when you tell them(politely) that the car fails for OBVIOUS tampering.
 
#21 ·
Yeah, I was surprised to see that on the PA website. I thought all counties were on the Dyno by now, but it does look like Berks where the OP is just the Gas Cap and Visual. I hope they dont make him have to put the airpump back on....guess they could if they wanted to follow the "Letter of the Law" when it comes to GM's disable proceedure. But picking up one of those TSB Stickers and placing it on your Rad Support may help in the future.

They are sneaky with those setup cars. I believe you can also get a waiver from the state if you pay up to a certain amount trying to repair it but not sure how that works. I was under 5000 miles for the year so was exempt from emissions this year.

Worse case scenario, if you know the right people, you can get a sticker illegally, but I would never do that ;).
 
#22 ·
Before I had a regular shop my 95 passed with no air pump and an open PCV breather at a random shop, don't even remember where it was since the cats were still stock and it passed at the tail pipe. It hasn't had to pass emissions in years (low mileage) and is now exempt. I guess I can see where they're coming from, I wouldn't risk my license unless I knew you well but it is BS if they know it doesn't need to work. Worst case drive into Philly with a few extra bucks in your pocket. Is the car your daily? You can get classic tags now... no emissions ever again and no annual registration...
 
#23 ·
You can get classic tags now... no emissions ever again and no annual registration...
Forgot about the Classic Tags, that could be an option. Still need the safety inspection, but Emmisions exempt.
 
#24 ·
except i drive near 30K a year so cant do classic lol
 
#25 ·
Giving a waiver is literally asking the QAO to show up at your shop within a day or 2. I've literally been told by our QAO that when a waiver is issued they have to go investigate it as top priority. As far as it being a legit inspection, if it had one of the tsb stickers on the rad support they never would've even looked into it any further. Now that it's "being looked into", getting another station to run it thru the system will absolutely trigger a flag.

You need to find a friend to register it to in a non-emmissions county... visual check only and with a tsb sticker, it would never be questioned again.

But I didnt say that.
 
#26 · (Edited)
who giving a waiver to who? what woudl they find at the shop? the car woudl be gone. and if penndot gave my guy a waiver why would they question it? i'm lost

oh i'm sure even with sticker it woudlnt have mattered..told the guy about the sticker and he didnt seem interested. unfortunately the 2 people that i knew there werent there that day or arent there anymore..so maybe thats the problem too

so when another garage runs the vin what will happen to that garage? they wont able to stick it? and what if they do? this guy never said i had to bring it back to him if it doesnt get passed. and if the 2nd guy passes it how do they know i didntn remove it 2 days later..do the cops show up at your door with a warrant?

i'm just curiuos the logistics of this...my guess is based on what you said they dont let the car pass on the computer until someone gets there? seems like a lotta trouble for something that literally doesnt have to work, even by the states admission

no chance this being registered anywhere else

talked to my friend and if we have to we will rig it back up..wont be fun though..will cut the pipe and hose it back together but i remember it not being much fun at all

who's put theirs back on? tell me it's not that bad
 
#27 · (Edited)
What he is saying is once its flagged, ie: being looked into, your car is already in the "system" and it doesnt matter what shop you go to it will still be flagged and you'll just start the process all over again.


I seem to remember a thread about you asking if you should put the air pump equipment back on since you had the engine out, some said yes due to smog issues most said ahh screw the smog guys leave it off. Bet you wish you didnt listen to them huh?

These issues suck, sorry your going through it. Best to find the parts and put them back on to pass.

there is a video in this thread about the air pump. just watch it it reverse to put the stuff back on to pass.

http://www.impalassforum.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=272656&highlight=air+pump&page=2
 
#28 ·
but what is the procedure if i go to another shop, no one seems to know. will the computer be locked out from giving me a sticker? what if i do put it back on and just go to anther shop becasue i dont like my current shop anymore. there has to be a provision for when this goes back in the car and is checked. so i dont understand the flagging process and what it really means.
 
#29 ·
The state inspection is still run by private shops. You are free to go to any shop you want to. I would have left the first shop a long time ago and found a different one for my inspection. It just seems like you are over thinking this issue. You should be able to find a shop that won't even notice or say anything. They have NEVER said anything to me or flagged it and I even have to do the Dyno in my county.

Just not sure if the next shop will see some sort of flag when they enter your VIN intohe state system. I hope not or it may be time to start doing the infamous "air pump re-install mod" which would suck.
 
#30 · (Edited)
thats what i'm trying to get to..what happens at the next shop i go to (which i know already will sticker it). am i putting them 'out' by asking them to do this? if it's just a matter of them ignoring the flag and confirming the thing is installed then i can live with that

i just dont want the CIA and NSA at his shop the next day because he did the emissions on a flagged car is what i'm worried about.

what is the reinstall mod?

edit: intersting the law says only airpump below..not the piping lol..or does number 3 cover the piping?

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/067/chapter177/subchapCtoc.html

A visual inspection of the vehicle emission control system shall look for the presence of the following emission control devices:

(i) Catalytic converter.
(ii) Exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) valve.
(iii) Positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) valve.
(iv) Fuel inlet restrictor.
(v) Air pump.
(vi) Evaporative control system components.
(2) Visual inspections shall be performed through direct observation or through indirect observation, using a mirror or other visual aid. (3) Inspections shall include a determination as to whether each subject device is present and appears to be properly connected and to be the correct type for the certified configuration


and this just says retested so maybe the 2nd shop wont be a big deal after all
§ 177.271. Procedure.


(a) I/M emission test. Vehicles that fail the initial I/M emission test or a retest shall be retested after repair.
(b) OBD-I/M check. Vehicles that fail the OBD-I/M check shall be retested after repair and clearing of the DTCs appearing in the initial check and compliance of the vehicle with the readiness requirements of § 177.203(b)(1) (relating to test procedures). (c) Gas cap test and visual inspection. Vehicles that fail the gas cap test or visual inspection shall be retested after repair.
 
#34 ·
what is the reinstall mod?

.
There is none that I'm aware of. That was just a bad joke on my part. If you do have to put that stuff back on you may be the first to do a write up on it. But it really is just a matter of bolting the stuff back on...not complicated, just a PITA.

Seriously, just go to another shop, don't mention anything about it and don't worry about them. They are not going to jeopardize their inspection license to do something illegal if they notice it, they will bring it to your attention. If they don't, they will slap a sticker on your windshield and you don't have to worry about it til next year.
 
#32 ·
If you go to another shop and play stupid like you didn't take it in yet I don't see how they would know. If the state wants to investigate the new shop for passing it, that's not your fault and they wouldn't have anything to hold them on since they could say everything that was required was there when you came in. I can't see how it would flag it since you don't have to plug into anything like an OBDII or tailpipe test.
 
#33 · (Edited)
i do hope it's not much a big deal as i think it will be but i have super bad luck when it comes to these things. when the station calls me back this week to leave me the voicemail about the not passing, i'll pretty much just ignore it until i decide my next step

it's really up to my friend becasue he either has to help put all the crap back on or tell me to go to his friends station...unless i try the place that sold me my engine..they do work in the back garage and maybe they would give me leeway since the know me so very well and i gave them over 3K in business last year :)

edit: just glad i didnt get a new open loop PCM like i planned to one day, they somehow would probably have sniffed that out ;)
 
#35 ·
there's a problem with that. if i dont tell them and they go thru all the SI stuff they will charge me yet again for something they actually did..pulling the wheels etc. every mechanic has his own routine and i have no idea if they look at emissions first or not.

so if i take it to another shop they may do everything then notice the thing and i get dinged yet again for no sticker lol

see the quandry?

the one saving thing, now that i thnk about it, is the guys at the parts shop do know me well and assuming the 24 hour rule is what i think it is, they arent responsible for more than 1 day after SI anyway. so i think i have a better chance of talking them into passing anyway. heck id even let the car sit there 2 days if would make them feel better lol
 
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