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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Building a 500HP or so single turbo 5.3, anyone have any issues with fuel starvation under accelleration with the stock impala tank and sender? Planning on putting a single 450 pump in the impala tank and hoping to not always have to have it half full or better.
 

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Lots of talk over the years here of guys having to run at 1/2 trank or better at the track.
My experience was was a little better when I ran high 12s.
Boosted car ,not sure I would want to test the limits of the delivery system.

While still NA I make some power .
I use a Walbro 255 in tank flooding a small makeup tank at 0 pressure.
Bosch "044" feeding the engine at 58 .
If you are boost referenced pressure they are worth considering.
Many ways to skin a cat
 

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I think mine is not much more than a liter.
Single pump.
Where I mounted it it was the better fit.
They make a dual pump setup that you can plug one side and just use the extra volume.
They make knock offs of mytank and you can get them for less than a hundred bucks.

The genuine 044 pumps are not cheap.
 

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Mine is in the left rear corner
 

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I think Gerry hit on mostly everything but i'll throw some input in and some options I explored/the pros and cons of them.

So stock tank would work, you can even mount a twin pump setup in the stuck bucket. The biggest issue is, as already mentioned, baffling. The stock tank is terrible, I have starved a stock pump doing donuts with nearly a half tank and a pump capable of feeding 500whp with boost is going to be sucking a lot more fuel from the bucket a lot faster. If you only drag race the car and keep the tank over half, you'd be fine, but if you ever plan on road racing, doing donuts in a parking lot, powering out of a long turn etc... I'd stay away from stock. Just too much risk with going lean under boost from fuel starvation.

Option two is a surge tank/swirl pot. As 95 Wagon mentioned it's just a small tank that gets fed by your stock tank/in tank pump and then feeds your motor via auxiliary pump(s). This is THE best option for fuel control, if sized right you really can't run this dry. Only reason I didn't go this route is just because I couldn't find a good spot I felt I could safely mount it with my build and I didn't really want to have to worry about having 3 fuel pumps since I'd need two for my engine side of things. I think if I could do it over, I might have went this route instead though and looked a little harder for a good mounting spot for the surge tank.

Option three is what I did, an automotive phantom system. They sell these with a single 450LPH, dual 340LPH (what I run) E85 compatible, the dual option is good for 1200WHP on pump and probably over 900whp on E85. You cut a hole in the top of the factory tank, drill some holes and the hat bolts in with a special foam gasket. They include a foam bucket that goes into the tank and acts as a baffle. The hat has a return, two feeds and a vent built in and the return feeds back into the bucket to help keep the pumps submerged. Supposedly the fuel control on this system is great , and I've got maybe 3k miles on mine so far with some track use but haven't had an opportunity to really test the limits with lower fuel levels yet.
Only downside to this is the hat sticks up about 1/2" and didn't clear the floor where I mounted it, so I had to cut little bit of the trunk floor to clear the hat. I actually made it look factory by blending the notched area with the factory hump and welding up a sheet metal access hatch for, but that is just cosmetics. Benefits now though is I can access both the sending unit and the fuel pumps with the turn of a few wing nuts. You could also probably space the tank down somehow to give you the floor clearance.

Option four is a fabricated fuel tank. A couple people make fabricated aluminum fuel tanks for our cars with rear mounted sumps and AN feeds to an external pump. Another great option for fuel control, but they are pricey and definitely don't look stock (could be a good or bad thing depending who you are).

Option five is to sump an 80's caprice tank by welding something like an Aeromotive or Competition Engineering sump into a stock steel tank. I've done this before on older cars and was going to do it in mine, but the only sump I really trusted for good fuel control during both lateral G's and acceleration was the Aeromotive and it is bulky and hangs low. On a lowered car I was just worried it was something that could potentially be damaged easily be backing into a parking space with a tall tire stop or something.

Option six is a fuel cell

Option seven, and I don't recommend it but I have seen guys do it, is a diesel style fuel sump fitting in a stock tank. They sell them for trucks, they are just little fittings that sandwich into a stock tank to give you a feed from the bottom of the tank to your external fuel pump of choice. They don't really provide much baffling at all though. Probably fine for 1/4 mile but probably poorer fuel control in a turn than even a stock bucket.
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
All excellent information. The phantom looks to be around $800, more than I think needs to be spent to make this work. I am thinking the surge tank would be my best option, I could put a walboro 255 in the stock tank with the stock sending unit feeding a surge tank with a 450 pump. I have a good spot up front where I could mount a tank that could hold a gallon or so of fuel. Couple questions that come to mind would be is the factory 3/8 feed and 5/16 return enough to feed the surge tank up front? I think it would be enough, and I could run a -10 feed and -8 return from the surge tank to the engine if needed. I would rather mount the surge tank under the hood than in the trunk and move the battery to the trunk.

What about putting a cylinder around the pump like a z28 or LS truck pump module? Does that work like a surge pump keeping fuel in the plastic enclosure?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Mine is in the left rear corner
Man that is a small surge tank, barely larger than the pump. That is all that is needed?
 

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It is a little smaller than I wanted BUT
It is about 2 feet away from the 255 in tank. Pumps are normally rated at 0 pressure free flow , which is BS in the real world.
So in my case , short line across the car , no inertia to fight , full voltage I am probably getting the 255 .
That on paper is nearly enough to feed my car .
So with that in mind I am not " using " much of the surge tank.
Any gulp of air, or sag in delivery the surge tank makes up the difference.
Huge deal with a non return fuel rail set up like my LS7 is any gulp of air or a bubble at WOT the only way for it to get out is through an injector.
Bad for me NA , disastrous for you.
Any air comes out of surge tank , right back to the main.
Also my surge tank return to the main tank goes to the bottom of the tank.
If the in tank pump or surge tank stats to fall behind, the HP pump will try to pull fuel back up the return to keep up.

The other tank I showed that is going into the front or a carbed car is only going to be fed by the stock mech engine pump.
That one the volume is more critical.
The math says we should be able to make a quarter mile on surge tank alone. ( twice my size and only one pump )
Car is not done yet so it is all theory at this point.
Next time it or my wagon is on the dyno I will try making a pass on surge tank alone watching fuel pressure.

In closing , yes I would like my tank to be a little bigger but the car has successfully made passes with no issues and NEVER fallen on its face blasting around corners.

Most all the cars here in the shop are road race . Almost all run 4 low pressure corner pumps to a surge tank and 1 Bosch Motorsports pump.
Many have 2 HP pumps but most are redundant so you only run one or the other.
 

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Some simplistic math in reference to required surge tank volume.
50 gallons per hour should more than supply 600 crank hp.
.167 gallons in 12 seconds
About 2/3 of a quart for a pass if the in tank pump wasnt even helping.

" think" my math is there.

To reiterate, remember pump rating is almost aways free flow so the hp they can support is sometimes misunderstood.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Considered making a tank and then found aluminum 2 liter tanks on ebay for $35, at that price it isnt worth the time to weld one up. I will make an in tank mount and put a 450 inside, feed the tank with a 250. 3/8" lines from the stock tank to the surge, 5/16" return from the surge to the original tank. 3/8 from the surge tank to the rails, 3/8 to the FPR, 3/8 return to the surge tank. Sound good enough for 500 crank HP and not lose fuel pressure? I figure max 10-12 pounds on the 5.3. Maybe I should leave the stock pump in the tank to actually reduce the amount of fuel being taken out of it? As long as the surge stays full I will be good to go. I could step up to -10 feeds from the surge if needed, just would have to find fittings.
 

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I cant speak to the volume the stock pump will
free flow to the front of the car, never tried it.
You might have to run a flow test , remembering you wont be fighting inertia

The Walbro 255 lph in my tank and the improved wiring I did when the car was a 350.

The high pressure side , I dont see you needing more than 3/8 or # 6 .
Mine is single feed 3/8 nylon and I am making more than your goals.
Ive seen way more hp than you or I on 3/8 .

Also your 450 , I have no experience with one .
Make sure it has the " numbers" at 70 psi if you are boost referencing the fuel pressure.
Forced induction is not my strong point.
Others with more experience will chime in.
 
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