[pmgm]

Yea thanks for the info and pics ... I can use that setup too..

 

[juniorwatson]

[SNIP]
What is the difference between the F-body and B-body sender? I guess I'm dense but I still don't understand. I DO want to have the autometer, as well as the dash guage working.

Thanks again,

Tony

The factory sending unit in the water pump is what the PCM sees for water temperature. It has a 2-pin head on it. You need to install an F-Body sending unit in place of the factory sending unit to keep both the PCM and dashboard gauge working. The F-Body sender and connector allow you to keep the PCM and OEM gauge.

As stated in my previous post, and now in BOLD. (Off 1 sending unit as pictured in my post, Pic #5, as it has 3 leads, 2 for PCM and 1 for OEM gauge)

 

[ocala]

Uhh duhhh

OK, I think it's sinking in to my THICK skull, I THINK! cwm3

Thanks again for explaining it so even I can understand. I presume I need an LT1 F-body sender, as opposed to an LS1 sender. Is this correct?

Thanks for putting up with my stupid questions.

 

[Gregg-O]

as i read all water gauges go bad in the impala and the sensor on the front by the water pump is for the pcm. i have a auto-meter gauge ready to install but need to know if i tap into the wire on the RH side of the block will my gauge read??

Are you having a problem with the stock gauge? These cars are getting old, some part's do wear-out with time/miles.

 

[juniorwatson]

OK, I think it's sinking in to my THICK skull, I THINK! cwm3

Thanks again for explaining it so even I can understand. I presume I need an LT1 F-body sender, as opposed to an LS1 sender. Is this correct?

Thanks for putting up with my stupid questions.

Here's the info from RockAuto on the sending unit & 3-conductor harness to be used in the configuration I've described:

AIRTEX / WELLS 1P1065 Throttle Position Sensor Connector $ 13.40
AIRTEX / WELLS 1T1043 Temperature Sender $ 12.45

 

[juniorwatson]

OK, first off I'm COLOR-BLIND and will try to make the best of what I've pictured as what lead wgoes to what from the connector harness to the WP sender.

This is the pic of the leads going to the WP sender:

This image shows the leads from the PCM to the F-Body harness going to the sender in the water

This is an overall pic of the conductors removed from the platic loom showing what PCM wire goes to what water pump sender wire:

Clarity:

1. Red Heatshrink goes from yellow PCM to WP Sender Black conductor.
2. Light Blue heatshrink (??) goes from PCM Green (??) to WP Sender Green conductor (??)
3. White heat shrink goes to the OEM (RH Cylinder head) wiring.

I hope this helps all.

 

[ocala]

BIG THANKS juniorwatson!

I don't completely understand what I'm looking at, but I think it will come together when I start.

I have the sender but the harness hasn't arrived yet, so hopefully the color coding will be the same. I would have posted this sooner but I've been working on a plumbing leak under the slab of my house. Uggggh!

Thanks again for your extra effort!

Tony

 

[1slow96]

Autometer water temp.

My problem with the factory guage/sensor turned out to be with the connector itself (pass. side cyl.head) it's proximity to headers didn't help. I installed a new terminal on a heavier ga. wire,and further protected it with heat shielding tape. While the F body mod will work,it doesn't seem easer to me. Especially if the plan includes installing another sensor in the same heat plagued location. Access on drivers side seems much better. I use an electric full sweep Autometer, it is extremely accurate. It unplugs at the sender. In my experience capillary tubing is problematic,and is easy to damage,but It is inexpensive,and if treated gently it will last for many years.

 

[bigbluebus2500]

Ok so I was trying to fix my non-working temp dash gauge, so I need to figure out where the sender is. From reading these posts, I think it's safe to assume that the sender on the water pump is for the PCM. So there must be another sender somewhere on the block or heads for the gauge, correct?
The only other sender I could find was in the very rear of the engine, behind the intake manifold, under the EGR valve. Is this the sender for the gauge?
Anyone????

 

[juniorwatson]

Ok so I was trying to fix my non-working temp dash gauge, so I need to figure out where the sender is. From reading these posts, I think it's safe to assume that the sender on the water pump is for the PCM. So there must be another sender somewhere on the block or heads for the gauge, correct?
The only other sender I could find was in the very rear of the engine, behind the intake manifold, under the EGR valve. Is this the sender for the gauge?
Anyone????

See my post #18 for an image of where the sender is for the gauge; RH cylinder head between cylinders 6 & 8.

 

[1phastss]

Here is some info I have found and saved for those who are looking to add a gauge.

Several people with LT1/LT4 powered vehicles have noticed that the temperature gauge reading seems to fluctuate greatly, depending primarily on whether the vehicle is moving or not. It has also been noticed that the PCM indicated engine temperature does not always agree with what the gauge shows, leading many to believe that their instrument cluster temperature gauge is inaccurate or faulty. I can assure you that in most cases the temperature indicated by the gauge is absolutely and totally accurate, for the POSITION on the engine at which the gauge sending unit is MOUNTED!!!

To understand this, first note that there are two temperature sending units on the LT1/LT4, one for the gauge and one for the PCM. The one for the gauge is mounted in the side of the cylinder head, while the PCM sending unit is mounted on the front of the engine directly in the water pump. B/D-cars (Impala, Caprice, Roadmaster, Fleetwood) and Y-cars (Corvette) have the gauge sender installed in a tapped hole in the rear of the RH cylinder head, between the #6 and #8 spark plugs. F-cars (Camaro, Firebird) have the gauge sending unit mounted in a tapped hole in the front of the LH cylinder head, between the #1 and #3 spark plugs.

Now remember that this engine is reverse flow cooled. This means that cold engine coolant entering the engine from the radiator is directed to the heads first, which is exactly why the gauge sending unit reads low compared to what the PCM sending unit sees. The PCM sending unit sees actual engine coolant temperature, and is not hit by the flow of cold coolant directly from the radiator.

If there is a problem with the gauge at all, it is certainly NOT that it is inaccurate. The gauge is perfectly accurate, but the SENDING UNIT for the gauge is mounted in the WRONG PLACE to get a "correct" reading. Unfortunately there are no other tapped holes in the water jacket to mount it unless you drill and tap another location. There is a tapped and plugged hole in the opposite cylinder head, but that would offer the same gauge readings, in fact it might read even lower temperatures since the tapped hole in the LH head it is mounted more towards the front of the block, closer to where the coolant first enters the heads from the radiator.

It has been verified with scan tools which can directly read the PCM indicated temperature, as well as a digital Cyberdyne gauge sending unit mounted in the stock gauge sending unit location, that the two stock temperature sending units (gauge and PCM) will read temperatures as much as 60 degrees different while moving at high speeds on a cool night. If you stop and let the car idle long enough, eventually the radiator coolant temperature in the head equals what the actual coolant temperature in the block is, and both readings are relatively the same. As soon as you start moving, the temperature read at the gauge sending unit in the head will drop rapidly, however the actual engine temperature, and that which is sensed by the PCM sending unit, remains about 10 degrees above the thermostat setting.

Note that you cannot run both the gauge and the PCM off of the same sending unit. The gauge sender is a simple one wire sender where the body is grounded to the engine block. I believe it runs on 12v through the gauge and sender to ground. The PCM sender is a two-wire sender with a 5v signal and a digital PCM ground (not chassis ground). The gauge cannot be run off of this sender without messing it or the PCM up.

In any case, this anomaly CAN be corrected, in fact I will be getting around to doing this "MOD" very shortly.

The proper way to correct this temperature reading anomaly is to mount the gauge sending unit in the water pump housing, in the same water passage as the PCM sender is now. There are two ways to correct the problem. One would be to drill and tap a hole in one of the existing unused sending unit bosses in the water pump to mount the gauge sending unit in the same water passage as the PCM sending unit is located. With the gauge sending unit in the water pump, instead of in the LH cylinder head, the gauge will now read correctly in concert with the actual engine temperature, which is also the temperature the PCM sees. This method requires that a proper sized hole be drilled, tapped, and then the gauge sender can be installed. Then the existing sender wire must be lengthened and re-routed over to the new location.

A more elegant method of correcting this problem would be to simply replace the existing PCM sender with a new dual purpose sender that GM has recently been offering on other applications. This is a new GM 3-wire sending unit which includes both the PCM and Gauge senders in one unit, and which installs in the existing PCM sensor location.

GM has begun using a 3-wire dual purpose sender on some new engines. It combines both the PCM and gauge senders in one unit. This is ideal as no additional holes will have to be drilled or tapped, this new dual purpose sender can replace the existing PCM sender.

Here's the information on the 3 terminal coolant temperature sensor.
Part No Description Cost
10096181 PCM/Gauge sending unit $14.81
12102748 Connector pigtail (incl. terminals) $17.29
This connector pigtail is a complete connector with terminals and wires installed, which would have to be spliced to the existing wires.

Another alternative would be to get the connector and terminals plus wire from a junkyard. It's the same connector that is used on the throttle position sensor of the LT1 and many other engines.

The new sending unit is wired as follows:
Pin A = Black, PCM sensor ground
Pin B = Yellow, coolant signal to PCM
Pin C = Dark Green, to Gauge

In summary, the temperature differential in the Impala gauge vs. PCM sending units is the fault of the location of the gauge sending unit, and not the gauge or sending unit itself. I would consider this a design anomaly (nice word for bug or flaw ) which fortunately can be easily corrected, and which of course does not affect

UPDATED INFO -
Auto Zone Pigtail Number 417 is equivelant to GM#12102748,
Auto Zone Sensor TU178 is equivelent to GM#10096181

 

[luckydriver]

Here is the water temperature sender pic:


Here is a picture when I first installed the gauges:

I decided to move them outward more so I could better see them while driving (In a 2nd bezel I had)

I hope this helps.

what diameter are those? looks like the 2 1/16 i see so common would be a tight fit and you may have to find 1.5?

 

[juniorwatson]

what diameter are those? looks like the 2 1/16 i see so common would be a tight fit and you may have to find 1.5?

Yes the gauges are 2-1/16" DIA. They were a close fit, but I got them to fit right where I wanted with the second bezel (spacing outward as much as possible for better visibility).

 

[luckydriver]

Yes the gauges are 2-1/16" DIA. They were a close fit, but I got them to fit right where I wanted with the second bezel (spacing outward as much as possible for better visibility).

ty for the answer. other than shaving out the extra 1/16 with the tool you mentioned, did you have to do any other modifications to the bezel or the plastic that the bezel attaches too...from memory i think there was a hole or 2 that looked 'close'

and i guess while i do this i may as well put another gauge on the other side right lol...just gotta think of one.

 

[juniorwatson]

ty for the answer. other than shaving out the extra 1/16 with the tool you mentioned, did you have to do any other modifications to the bezel or the plastic that the bezel attaches too...from memory i think there was a hole or 2 that looked 'close'

and i guess while i do this i may as well put another gauge on the other side right lol...just gotta think of one.

To answer your question, no only the opening of the hole from 2" to 2-1/16" with the tool I listed, was the only additional thing. I had a friend hold the bezel while I went around the ID of the hole to open it up ever so slightly. That plastic cuts easily with that tool; like a hot knife thru butter.

If I were to add a 3rd gauge, I'd prob. go with a transmission temerature gauge.

 

[luckydriver]

To answer your question, no only the opening of the hole from 2" to 2-1/16" with the tool I listed, was the only additional thing. I had a friend hold the bezel while I went around the ID of the hole to open it up ever so slightly. That plastic cuts easily with that tool; like a hot knife thru butter.

If I were to add a 3rd gauge, I'd prob. go with a transmission temerature gauge.

i went out and measured...that is VERY tight ..i measured as follows

from the rear : measuring on the flat part of the bottom of the curve to the top of the plastic piece that threads thru dash the hole is barely 2 1/16...and from the front it appears you started at least 1/4 down from the curved part

you had to have removed that nub didnt you?..if not i wanna hire you as mandrake the magician

 

[luckydriver]

i measured from the bottom dash frame to the bottom of the clear glass and thats only 1 and 3/4 in..so how did you get this to fit?

seems like you need to totally remove one of the spring clips or the mounting pin then would have enough room..which is the better choice?

 

[FuzzyNutzGoneWild]

Just trying to verify before buying it but is this the right part for the temperature sender? Looking on RockAuto this is the number that came up when matching to the GM part number.
ACDELCO Part # 213815

 

[luckydriver]

if anyone has detailed assistance regarding how to get the autometer connector off the sender id appreciate it. i bought a heat sleeve but i cannot get the darn thing off and im scared to force it. even with flashlight i cant figure out what needs pried

 

[Barbarossa]

Can anyone elaborate on the thread in the head?

I'm looking at ordering a gauge and sender, but I don't know if it is metric, or US.