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Discussion Starter #1
I'm looking to add a 12inch sub into my trunk, instead of 2 10's as I have an MtX 8955 with the 5th channel putting out 320rms on 2ohms.

What is the diff between a free air vs enclosed? Sounds like something that makes more sense as I could possibly mount it to the rear seat-backing frame from inside my trunk, faceup against the frame I suppose, instead of having to build an enclosure of some sort at either quarter panel or in a box.. Am I right or is this a folly? And do freeair subs require more rms to drive them?

I've got a choice between a Clarion 12in dualvoice 4ohm, Kicker 12in 2ohm needing to be closed and an MTX 12in free air at the same price.

I don't know what the diff is either with a 2ohm sub or a 4ohm sub. Too many choices, not enough education. I think I could spend all day searching the web for options but figured I ask some Impy guru's for their advice first.

My objective as I'm building a cheap or basic sound system is getting some good base, but with the least amount of hassle and minimal contraint on my pocketbook and space in my trunk.

What's your opinion?
 
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Discussion Starter #2
In one of my early systems I used a free air setup using two 10" woofers there is a lot of low bass but you have to be careful in overpowering them. You also have to completely seal of the the trunk from the cabin so that the rear sound waves don't mix with the front. John Pitts 1998 USAC and IASCA Expert class champion in the Reaper used this setup but would usually blow at least one woofer at Finals. I personally prefer sealed boxes do to them being more predictable in all frequencies. Depending on what ohm load your amp is capable of playing depends on what ohm speaker you need. For maximum power you want to keep the ohm load of the speakers as close to the minimum ohm load of the amp. A lower ohm load does cause more heat which can sometimes make the amp go pop. Just my two cents. I'm sure there will be others to disagree with me.
 
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Discussion Starter #3
free air sups look great in the rear deck of b-bodys

but I gotta vote for a ported encloser if you do an encloser proted to specs and run 1 nice 12" you will sound like 2 sealed 12"s
 
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Discussion Starter #4
Free air FTW!
For normal music, it really rocks, even at decent levels. It will not however, rock the neighborhood. If yo want good, clean, MUSICAL bass, free air is great. If you like rap, or whatever, and need thump that people can hear down the block, you need a box.
If you want to do permanant damage to your hearing, be partially deaf before you turn 30, get a box.
Oh, nice little benefit of free-air - you get to have a useable trunk. Also, does not require gobs of power, and is much harder to steal.
And no, you don't have to get all anal about sealing the trunk, just mount them to a baffle board, screw it down really good to the seat back, (maybe with some foam to isolate the two - and prevent rattles), and have at it.
If you are building a home theater, and have a spare room (attic or basement) NOTHING beats an ib setup. I really wish I had an attic or basement near my HT!
 
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Discussion Starter #5
I think I'll stick to enclosing a sub, eventhough freeair sounds like what I want as it seems to offer less of a hassle.

What I won't need is more than one sub then, in the trunk, probably a 12 and set the gain a little lower.

I like some classic rap sometimes but mostly a variety of music, just none of the new MOFO stuff.

Thanks a bunch guys, it makes my decision a lot more clear.

PS: Give a listen to Kazzer's "Petal to the Medal". That's my Imp's theme song. Download the vid as well.
 
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Discussion Starter #6
Originally posted by bbodyguy (o) (o):
And no, you don't have to get all anal about sealing the trunk, just mount them to a baffle board, screw it down really good to the seat back, (maybe with some foam to isolate the two - and prevent rattles), and have at it.
sorry, but this is the worst thing you can say to anyone wanting to build an IB setup.

sealing the front of the speaker from the rear, is the single MOST important thing that you can do.

you might get some bass if you do what you just suggested, but it will be nowhere near what it could be, and it will be twice as easy to blow the subs.
 
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Discussion Starter #7
Originally posted by PIMPALA--SS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by bbodyguy (o) (o):
And no, you don't have to get all anal about sealing the trunk, just mount them to a baffle board, screw it down really good to the seat back, (maybe with some foam to isolate the two - and prevent rattles), and have at it.
sorry, but this is the worst thing you can say to anyone wanting to build an IB setup.

sealing the front of the speaker from the rear, is the single MOST important thing that you can do.

you might get some bass if you do what you just suggested, but it will be nowhere near what it could be, and it will be twice as easy to blow the subs.
</font>[/QUOTE]I respectfully dis-agree.
What should the average bear do about the 6X9's?
The baffle board that hack sells is pretty occlusive to the back seat, but you are not going to seal the 6X9's off.
There are MANY of these set-ups running around, and even some that one sound competitions.
And the IB sub needs nothing for suspension, it has it "built in", it does not need the sealed trunk to survive. This one of the nice things about the IB set up, it is very efficent.
It may be very slightly di-pole ish, but hey- some of the best speakers known to man are. Check out
these for the home. There are plenty of designs like this coming out.

[ 02-04-2007, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: bbodyguy (o) (o) ]
 
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Discussion Starter #8
Also- see if you can listen to someone with this set up. Most are amazed when I tell them it is an IB.
 
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Discussion Starter #9
Well, you guys have now thoroughly confused me. I have two kicker "free air" subs and I built a baffle board that I was planning on mounting behind the rear seat. How would you seal the front of the subs from the back?
 
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Discussion Starter #10
Mount them to the baffle board, and see how it sounds.
I am willing to bet you will like it.
I mounted the baffle board very secure; using big honking wood screws from the seat side, and some open cell foam between the seat back and baffle board (not where the drivers were though) to compress the baffle board to the seat back.
 
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Discussion Starter #11
Originally posted by bbodyguy (o) (o):
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by PIMPALA--SS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by bbodyguy (o) (o):
And no, you don't have to get all anal about sealing the trunk, just mount them to a baffle board, screw it down really good to the seat back, (maybe with some foam to isolate the two - and prevent rattles), and have at it.
sorry, but this is the worst thing you can say to anyone wanting to build an IB setup.

sealing the front of the speaker from the rear, is the single MOST important thing that you can do.

you might get some bass if you do what you just suggested, but it will be nowhere near what it could be, and it will be twice as easy to blow the subs.
</font>[/QUOTE]I respectfully dis-agree.
What should the average bear do about the 6X9's?
The baffle board that hack sells is pretty occlusive to the back seat, but you are not going to seal the 6X9's off.
There are MANY of these set-ups running around, and even some that one sound competitions.
And the IB sub needs nothing for suspension, it has it "built in", it does not need the sealed trunk to survive. This one of the nice things about the IB set up, it is very efficent.
It may be very slightly di-pole ish, but hey- some of the best speakers known to man are. Check out
these for the home. There are plenty of designs like this coming out.
</font>[/QUOTE]nothing wrong with having a different opinion.

and those home audio speakers you listed, are FAR from being "the best speakers out there". in fact, they arent even close. however.. did you happen to notice... that even in THAT setup.. the subwoofers are in a sealed enclosure!. yes, the midbass are running IB (and will produce very little decent low midbass in that setup), but even that guy knows that subwoofers need more seperation.

and if you think that IB for use in the home audio world is a new thing, you need to look at some speakers that were high end back in the 60s and 70s using several drivers mounted to nothing more than a large panel. (check out bob carvers "the amazing speaker" for a quick example)


and yes, simply slapping a baffle board to your seat back, and strapping a couple of subs to it with a decent amount of power may get you some bass... hell, it may even be enough/more than enough for you. but why would you leave all that room for more? would you build a fully forged, high compression 383 capable of holding 500+hp, and then slap a set of stock iron heads, and a stock cam in it? hell no you wouldnt. you do it right the first time, and maximize what you have.


i never said that the trunk needs to be completly sealed. i know how a free-air subwoofer works, and i understand completly how to set a car up. what the car needs is for the trunk to be completly sealed off from the cabin. does it HAVE to be in order to work? of course not. should it be in order to get the best sound? YES.

its simple physics. its the way a subwoofer works. its the way it moves air, and its the way your ears hear the sound waves, and the sound waves that cancel each other out.


And bringing up home audio when discussing a car is like comparing apples to oranges.
 
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Discussion Starter #12
You are right, apples and oranges.
(BUT) I never said the ib set up was new, just that if you could use it properly in a home, it would be the best.
Also, I said "some of the the best - not the best". When you get up to that price point, the law of dimminishing returns is rapidly approaching. I considered getting a set of those, but talked myself out of them because I just do not have the room to let them breath.

But anyway, I have to ask, have you heard a properly set up IB in a bbody? I conisider it very musical, deep, and tight. Will it rip out your ear drums? No. Will it satisfy many? Absolutely. There are many bbody folks on this forum that have this set up and think highly of it.
My set up use the (now out of production) JL free airs, and I listen to it at levels that many people would not tolerate. No breakups, and nice even response. I liked it so much I did it again in my 9C1 which I later sold. The guy who bought it was pretty pleased with the install.
I had the car out in a field at a party/ pig roast that a doctor threw. Lots of guests, and the car sat there for hours idleing away with xm on 46, and the system cranked with the trunk cracked open, and it sounded GREAT.

My point is, unless you need fender bending bass, the IB is great solution.

Also, not to beat a dead, irrelevent horse, but look closely:


They be open baffle woofers in yonder...

[ 02-04-2007, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: bbodyguy (o) (o) ]
 
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Discussion Starter #13
^ you sir, are retarded, when it comes to this subject.

You don't just throw a sub in a baffle board and call it a day, it is much easier to set up a sealed box set up in the rear deck of our cars than IB, that is if your doing the IB correctly. Which, by your direction to the thread starter. Your not. But I am not even going to argue with you as you think you have the subject nailed...
 
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Discussion Starter #14
A) You can not call me retarded and run away. But if you must..

How do you explain all the happy campers that bought HACKS trunk kit, and used the included baffle board for a pair (or sometimes 4) subs?

I never said I had the subject nailed, I just thought I was pitching my tent in the IB camp that MANY have also done.

Hmmm. How is that some have WON sound competitions using this exact setup?
1) Great output.
2) Lighter weight
3) YOU GET TO KEEP YOUR TRUNK


Retarded? Phuck You.



[ 02-04-2007, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: bbodyguy (o) (o) ]
 
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Discussion Starter #15
Originally posted by bbodyguy (o) (o):
Also, not to beat a dead, irrelevent horse, but look closely:


They be open baffle woofers in yonder...
That's not a correct implementation of an infinite baffle setup...
 
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Discussion Starter #16
No, its not an IB, it is a Dipole.
My point was initally, that the trunk did not have to be perfectly sealed, that it would be fine if there was leaks, say thru the 6X9 speakers, and any other gaps that exist in the bbody in this type of installation.
That was just (a poor one, and apples to oranges, I know) to demonstrate that being completely sealed was not manditory.

Proper IB set up in a home:


[ 02-04-2007, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: bbodyguy (o) (o) ]
 
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Discussion Starter #17
Originally posted by bbodyguy (o) (o):
A) You can not call me retarded and run away. But if you must..

How do you explain all the happy campers that bought HACKS trunk kit, and used the included baffle board for a pair (or sometimes 4) subs?

I never said I had the subject nailed, I just thought I was pitching my tent in the IB camp that MANY have also done.

Hmmm. How is that some have WON sound competitions using this exact setup?
1) Great output.
2) Lighter weight
3) YOU GET TO KEEP YOUR TRUNK


Retarded? Phuck You.

A) I never ran away, take your midol and clean the sand out of your vagina

Most of those happy customer's were not into "great stereo setups" And weren't stereo inclined or had the knowledge to do it them selves, which explains why they paid $ for some MDF. Granted Hack could be a great guy and what ever. Which by the way I am sure you are wanting me to attack his product, but thats not what I am doing. Nice attempt at a cheap shot, see if I stir up the natives lol...

1. Great output- Yea... YEA right, thats very subjective (even if it was loud), just like you saying it sounds good, thats your opinion, but comparing to even an average sealed cheap set up, the output is not great. At all. Judging by your self acclaimed knowledge, I am sure it neither sounds good or has "great" output.

2. Lighter weight - wtf does that have to do with the sound... I am not going to even go into detail
3. You get to keep your trunk - You can keep almost the same amount of trunk space with a small enclosure under the rear deck. Some even leaving room for a spare.

2 out of your 3 points had nothing to do with the way the stereo sounded. You sir are talking out of your ass.

btw, how did you tune/seal off your trunk, just throw a lil dynamat in there huh? You think you can just throw some kicker free airs in a baf board and get good results, nothing to do with tuning or anything? I don't care what comps you won because I am positive they weren't any IASCA SQ events or anything large.... Better yet anything more than some local BS for that matter... Tell me what your front stage consists off Mr. SQ master...

Oh, and if your going to send me insults via pm, please empty your pm box so I can respond back. Durrrr


Still retarded... Yes.

[ 02-05-2007, 12:48 AM: Message edited by: B. Campbell ]
 
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Discussion Starter #18
Originally posted by bbodyguy (o) (o):

But anyway, I have to ask, have you heard a properly set up IB in a bbody? I conisider it very musical, deep, and tight. Will it rip out your ear drums? No. Will it satisfy many? Absolutely. There are many bbody folks on this forum that have this set up and think highly of it.
not only have i heard IB setups in b-bodys, and various other cars, but i sold, and installed car audio for several years, and my father owned several car audio shops in north carolina. i grew up in the business.

i am also MECP certified.

yes, i know what im talking about.


yes, the baffle board will create bass. there is no question about that. is it making the amount of bass, and the quality of sound that it COULD be?

no.


the guys who run IB setups and win SQ competitions, DO have their trunks sealed off from the cabin. i PROMISE that.

and the home audio setup with the multiple subs in the basement, firing into a chamber, obviously firing up thru the floor in a house, is a perfect example of what im talking about. those subs are sealed front from back.
 
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Discussion Starter #19
Originally posted by PIMPALA--SS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by bbodyguy (o) (o):

But anyway, I have to ask, have you heard a properly set up IB in a bbody? I conisider it very musical, deep, and tight. Will it rip out your ear drums? No. Will it satisfy many? Absolutely. There are many bbody folks on this forum that have this set up and think highly of it.
the guys who run IB setups and win SQ competitions, DO have their trunks sealed off from the cabin. i PROMISE that.
</font>[/QUOTE]Don't even try to tell em J, he knows it all...

To the thread starter, before you go throwing subs in a baffle do some research. I would look into image dynamics IDQ subs. You can't put just any sub IB.

Read threw some posts here, also check out they're install gallery

http://www.imagedynamicsusa.com/forum/
 
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Discussion Starter #20
Is it me or does it seem like the thread starter wanted NO PART of this stuff going on about his topic, wonder if he got his question answered :D I havent seen another reply from him on his thread yet...he prolly like oh schit what have I started
 
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