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Garry, is our autocross rules discussion over?

300 Views 5 Replies 0 Participants Last post by  MadMav
Just haven't heard anything out of you about my response yet. Really curious to see if anything can be done for the up and coming guys. Thanks,

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I thought it was.

I'm pretty sure I heard all you had to say, and sure I said all I wanted to.

As far as more changes THIS YEAR are concerned, don't count on any. The only changes I would push through mid-year are emergency changes necessary for safety reasons. People have already stared preparing their cars and I don't think it would be fair change the rules on them mid-season.

The concerns you mentioned have been recorded and will be voted on for changes to the 2004 season rules. Until then, it would help if you follow up with finding details that support your position. As it stands, I'm not convinced that intercoolers are as ineffective as you contend. If you can reference a published article that documents someone making huge horsepower using a supercharger and NO intercooler, that could change my mind. Until then, I would vote for leaving the points as they are and recommend that other members on the committee also vote no to a points change.
I thank you for your reply here. The reason I asked, was that you never even acknowledged my response to your points in the other post. There were a few other points that I made that never got attention. Remember, I have no district president to go to, but I want these items brought up. I do understand that nothing will be changed this year. A few of these questions should have been brought up at the last meeting, but nobody took the intiative to take what I asked and bring them up. I just thought you might be willing to bring them up next time. Like I said, this is not for me. I am to far into the "Race" catagory to care. As far as the intercoolers go, I am right, and will find some info or an expert to prove it to you and the board. Here is a repost of what I last said.

""Gar - Short answer, no. We each had two or three things written down that we wanted to discuss and no one remembered there was a question about superchargers & intercoolers. Les and I are already working to document a list of suggestions for then next round of changes, but you should expect the current point assessment to stay as it is for the rest of this year."
Ok, I figured that nobody brought it up, since nobody really addressed my multiply questions about it earlier in this post. Like I said, I am to far deep into the Race catagory to care about myself here, but others could benefit.

"Gar - Depending on how the system is done, an intercooler can double the HP gains from having just a turbocharger alone. I think most of the racing committee feels the current points are fair, but if you don't, please try to supply objective information regarding why intercoolers are not as effective as we seem to think they are. It may be that your intercooler isn't doing much, but that doesn't prove they are not effective for the majority who have them."

An intercooler does not directly increase HP. It simply allows you to run more boost from the supercharger without detonating the motor. Indirect increase still warrants point deduction, but not a 50/50 tie with the direct cause of the HP increase. An intercooler can never double the HP of a motor. It might allow you to run more boost on a supercharger increasing HP maybe 20% max. And this is more so on really high output systems. Not a stock bolton car.

"Gar - Hey, we get double wammied for headers and cat-back. I've seen supercharger installations that use the stock air box instead of a cold air intake, so if you were really worried about the point, you could plumb it that way. If you choose to use a cold air intake, you choose to take the point that goes with it."

So do I, this is not the same as what I said. If you buy a turbo kit, the turbo header pipes would be part of the turbo point deduction, not a seperate header point. Also no supercharger/Turbo kit is desined to run on the stock intake. It was brought up about the 19 piece dash kit in the car show rules. Does it count as 19 mods, or one mod. One mod of course. So should the parts that go into a supercharger kit be counted the same.

"Gar - I agree completely. Before I was a director myself, I brought this up with the racing committee and was pretty much ignored. Consider this on the list of discussion items, along with turbochargers, superchargers and intercoolers. What do you think would be a fair assessment for PCM programming and for an additional ignition system?"

The 2 points should be split up on this one. They should not be lumped together.

"Gar - Let's do a little 'Root Cause Analysis', to use a current catch phrase. You may consider programming a necessity for your supecharger, you may consider fuel injection revison a necessity for your supercharger, but the supercharger is NOT a necessity - it's a want. Add to that people can and do install superchargers and turbochargers without changing injectors, without changing the intake manifold and without reprogramming the PCM. It all leads to aless than convincing argument. I agree that if you don't do all those things, the performance will not be as good as it could be. It all comes down to the question: "Do the changes contribute to a performance gain?" If the answer is yes, then it is fair to assess points."

This is a catch all isn"t it. Kinda.
Question. If I had a stock car, and went and put 30+lb injectors on it, I would get deducted the point. Would I increase my performance? Absolutly not. In fact, I would suffer from not having the proper pulse width tune in the PCM. It kinda goes back to the "complete kit" thing. For my supercharger kit/setup programming and fuel injection revison are a necessity. Otherwise they would not be included in the kit. Some kits do not require them, but they are low boost kits without the fear of detonation.

"Gar - Safety? Would they still be safety if you didn't have the supercharger? Do they contribute to driver safety, or just longevity of the engine? Are cars that do not have injectors, programing, ignition and intercoolers unsafe? Should we not allow them to compete because they lack such essential 'safety' items? In short, I would like a more convincing argument that these are essential safety items."

These are simply safety items for the reliability of the motor. All included in the "kit" for these reasons.

I enjoy discussing these things and hope to continue to help out, or cause trouble , as much as possible.

Thanks for your time Gary,


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Info on the efficiency of intercooling and the power increase involved with one.

The pros at TitanMotorsports say that "An 11-degree (F) increase in charge temperature can reduce power output by about one percent."

Now using Prochargers intercooling efficiency chart

Figure 8psi adds 75 degrees above ambient and a total of 115 degrees of heat total for a non-intercooled system. Intercooling removes 87 degrees from the total and ends up with a total of 28 degrees above ambient. So, to get total power increase, devide 87 by 11 and you end up with roughly 8% increase in power. A 100% increase, or doubling of power as you stated, would only happen if you could run 14 more PSI of boost(one atmosphere) simply by adding an intercooler. This will never happen. Nor will an intercooler lower total temperature 1000 degrees to show a 100% increase. Hope this helps.

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mav, just wanted to reply to your question about regs? you state you have no " district president to go to"? yes you do!! thats what bill harper and i do...look to the members that need help!! second answer goes like this! this form is an option to issca and if you have a question/problem..i encourge you to email me directy! i do not check this page all the time! as far as your post goes...i rather answer off line! les brown director of region 2 (your area)
Les, I have emailed you a couple of times, and have not gotten a responce from you. Please email me so we can continue this discussion.

Thank you,
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