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Finished pulling everything but the crank hub off the front of the motor tonight so I can replace the timing chain set. Looked at the damper when I pulled it off and I'm reasonably certain it's the original, so 21 years old and I forget the mileage (probably no more than 100k though). It's not puking its guts by any means, but at the same time it's 21 years old and by the looks of it, has seen better days.



So I'm curious on what's out there for replacement balancers. I've perused rockauto and a few other places to see what's available and I'm specifically curious what experiences people have had with the Pioneer brand. They've got keyed hubs and a variety of balancers available. They make a stock equivalent, a "street" version and a "race" version that's sfi approved. (For reference, I'm still working on the '97 Camaro LT1 that's in my truck.)


I'm leaning towards the street balancer and maybe a keyed hub, but on the fence on that. Granted this build is fairly mild, but I don't have anything against adding a keyed hub since I'll be pulling the hub off anyways to get at the timing components. And if there's other stuff out there, tell me what it is and what you think of it. But not dorman, I hate dorman, dorman needs to either make better stuff, or go out of business, their junk drives me nuts.
 

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Get a keyed hub and Pioneer balancer.
Good stuff. Don't forget you'll need 2 new crank keys.

Nab
 

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Just did this same project on my wagon plus switched to electric water pump. Ended up with an ATI Super Damper 917327. It's a specific part for B bodies but is a 10% underdrive. The underdrive hasn't seemed to introduce any problems. Only downside that I can see is the price. My engine has 220,000 miles and runs wonderfully since putting this in, eliminating the mechanical fan and cam driven water pump. Not sure how much the underdrive change helped with power since the project involved several things but the overall improvement in engine power and noise reduction was significant.
 

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why are you replacing the timing chain with an engine that has 100K miles .. ? or you not exactly sure this has 100K miles ?
 

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I used a Powerbond street performance balancer.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Just did this same project on my wagon plus switched to electric water pump. Ended up with an ATI Super Damper 917327. It's a specific part for B bodies but is a 10% underdrive. The underdrive hasn't seemed to introduce any problems. Only downside that I can see is the price. My engine has 220,000 miles and runs wonderfully since putting this in, eliminating the mechanical fan and cam driven water pump. Not sure how much the underdrive change helped with power since the project involved several things but the overall improvement in engine power and noise reduction was significant.

Actually while researching what damper I wanted to use this time, I discovered something very interesting, you can actually get a stock size ATI super damper for the LT1 motors. They offer it on the f-body and y-body, but not the b-body, but you can get it. The biggest difference is that they use different hubs, f-body and b-body I know are different, I forget if the y-body is a third version, or identical to the f-body. However, you can order the hubs and shells individually, thus requiring you to also order the hardware separately and possibly the keys separately, but it is all available and I don't believe the price was drastically different. They actually list the exact same 10% underdrive outer shell part number for all three applications, so you'd need to order the b-body hub, and then the outer shell of your choice. You also have the choice of steel or aluminum for the stock size (I think there is a slight difference in the diameter of those two, but it's too small to be of any relevance).


ATI - Super Dampers庐 for Serpentine Applications


You'll see the b-body hub is part #916049A


The same 10% underdrive outer shell part #917071-44 for all three applications.


So just grab the hub and the other outer shell, ie - stock diameter in aluminum is part #917073


The hardware kit is part # 950200 for the standard bolt kit, ARP stainless option also available #951455 (I believe this is only the face bolts, and not the countersunk bolts, those appear to only be listed in bulk for 100 bolts, you'd need to track those down separately from arp). And there's a titanium option part #950200T if for some reason you wanted to spend $50 to save a couple ounces of weight.


ATI Super Damper庐 Parts & Accessories
 

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Discussion Starter #9
why are you replacing the timing chain with an engine that has 100K miles .. ? or you not exactly sure this has 100K miles ?

There's a few reasons, I'll try to list them all as succinctly as possible:


I do not in fact know the mileage of the engine, although I was told by the previous owner it was around 80k. Don't have any reason to doubt it, but can't prove it one way or the other either way.


The factory timing chains while being of good quality, are known to be a little looser than they should have been. They were provided by Cloyes, but per GM they were specifically made slightly loose to facilitate installation on the assembly line.


I happen to have a brand new Cloyes heavy duty timing set on hand (c-3039) that I had originally bought to put on the Caddy, but never used once that build changed directions. I may as well use it. It's also the correct (thus slightly tighter) length.


Being a swapped vehicle with tight quarters to work in and the amount of time and effort involved in getting down to a point that I could service the timing chain, I'd be foolish not to do it now.


As I will likely be taking it off already since I still tentatively plan to upgrade the cam, again it makes no sense not to put the new one on that I already have sitting around collecting dust.


I think those were all the factors that played into this decision, but knowing me I probably forgot something. Anyways, I hope that it makes sense now.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Got part#'s? I should probably do this on rebuilt LT1 still sitting on stand waiting to go in my wagon.

Yes, and they arrived today actually and I was pleasantly surprised to discover that they were made in Australia. Never would have expected that, but I'll take anything that isn't China. And I have to believe the aussie's aren't making junk, they're just as big into cars as we are. I did end up going with the Pioneer brand by the way, and of the three damper options (stock, street, and race which is also sfi approved) I went with the street version.


Hub part #872049
Damper part #872013
Keys part #PK126 (you'll need 2 of these as previously mentioned, by Nab I think)


They may also offer hardware, not sure, but I opted to reuse mine. Nothing wrong with them and the hub should accept the factory bolts.
 

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There's a few reasons, I'll try to list them all as succinctly as possible:


I do not in fact know the mileage of the engine, although I was told by the previous owner it was around 80k. Don't have any reason to doubt it, but can't prove it one way or the other either way.


The factory timing chains while being of good quality, are known to be a little looser than they should have been. They were provided by Cloyes, but per GM they were specifically made slightly loose to facilitate installation on the assembly line.


I happen to have a brand new Cloyes heavy duty timing set on hand (c-3039) that I had originally bought to put on the Caddy, but never used once that build changed directions. I may as well use it. It's also the correct (thus slightly tighter) length.


Being a swapped vehicle with tight quarters to work in and the amount of time and effort involved in getting down to a point that I could service the timing chain, I'd be foolish not to do it now.


As I will likely be taking it off already since I still tentatively plan to upgrade the cam, again it makes no sense not to put the new one on that I already have sitting around collecting dust.


I think those were all the factors that played into this decision, but knowing me I probably forgot something. Anyways, I hope that it makes sense now.
I would remove the front cover and check out how the chain looks then IF I did not like any wear/slop I would replace it .
some members have replaced these because they use them on race tracks ...

If the chain looks good don't mess with it .. my opinions on parts made today are a crap shoot ..
 

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I used the Cloyes C-3039 and as I found the stocker was really loose. I was in a position where 1 thing lead to another and since I had so much apart anyway decided to replace the Chain setup.

I was told that the Stock Chains are normally pretty loose anyway, but that even the Cloyes Chain will stretch after initial breakin but have not pulled the cover since to verify this. It was just one of those things that for the cost just seemed to make sense to do while it was all apart.

This thread link will show some pics from when I did this. You will see 1 that compares the length of the Chains from stock to Cloyes. The stock chain was a little longer and not sure if this is due to design or due to wear.

https://www.impalassforum.com/vBulletin/2637184-post12.html
 

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Looks may not be everything.

Found this thread a while back:


https://www.impalassforum.com/vBulletin/35-pcm-programming-engine-management/268536-injector-timing.html


Further testing on that has led me to find as much as 21 degrees variance on at least 1 car that had 100,000 miles and that car had stumbling and stalling even after a tune-up, MAF cleaning, new exhaust, and new fuel injectors. A new timing set brought this car back to life and restored fuel economy. On my own 91,000 mile ss i measured 12 degrees.
Rocko350


Ok well baiscally a GOOD Driveability tech who is knowledgable about the Optispark and can use an Oscilloscope can check it. Your car has to be a 96 with a crank sensor though.You see your cam spins at half the speed of the crank. You can compare the signals to see if they are in sync or if they are off a little. It is kind of a flat rate mechanic shortcut.:)
RamAirImpala



https://www.impalassforum.com/vBulletin/34-engine-problems-maintenance/1156177-symptoms-timing-chain-slop-2.html


This would be harder with the 94/95 as a temporary crank sensor would have to be rigged up.


I think the change/do not touch debate will last till the last LT1 is off the road. These engines are now 20+ years old and each one may require unique solutions.
 
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