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Discussion Starter #1
I am getting ready to lower my SS with the Hotchkis lowering springs. Instead of using the Hotchkis sway bars, I want to go with the Hellwig front bar, and HO rear bar. I am also going to get the GW rear LCA's, HAL 12 way shocks, and the airlift 1000 air bags (just in case I am carrying a full load).

Do you think this set up will give me good handling? Either as good as an F-body or better? Also, is this setup likely to give me understeer, oversteer, or even neutral?

My biggest concern is the effect of the bars with the Hotchkis springs as most posts I have read about sway bars are used with the stock springs.

Thanks for your help

Mike
 
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Discussion Starter #3
Unless he turns the front shocks up.
The Hellwig front is about 52.5% stiffer than stock, and the HO is 97.8.
The Hellwig rear is 71.3 and the HO is 441.4.It will be over steer, considering you keep the shocks the same, really so with the air bags.
I would go with the F-Car or the HO front if you want the HO rear, unless you turn the shocks up.
 
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Discussion Starter #4
Shocks mainly apply to transient response. It seems like the non-transient breakaway in this case would be oversteer.

The issue here is that he is using Hotckis springs, which are designed to be used in conjunction with Hotchkis bars. The Hotchkis springs have more bias toward neutral handling than the stock spring setup, which is what the F/HA bars put into a neutral condition. Putting the F(or Helwig)/HA bars on with Hotckis springs would put the bias into oversteer, instead being of neutral.
 
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Discussion Starter #5
Originally posted by Wayne Bengston:
Shocks mainly apply to transient response. It seems like the non-transient breakaway in this case would be oversteer.

The issue here is that he is using Hotckis springs, which are designed to be used in conjunction with Hotchkis bars. The Hotchkis springs have more bias toward neutral handling than the stock spring setup, which is what the F/HA bars put into a neutral condition. Putting the F(or Helwig)/HA bars on with Hotckis springs would put the bias into oversteer, instead being of neutral.
Wow, is there a sway bar set I can use with the Hotchkis springs that will perform better than the Hotchkis swaybars without throwing the car too far from neutral?

Mike
 
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Discussion Starter #6
I should have said more, but I meant that if he wanted to use the HO rear, by his post I assume he already has the HO rear since he is asking about f-car bar. I agree to match the springs with the bars when going with Hotchkis.

Maybe I should have read over again before hitting reply.
 
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Discussion Starter #7
From that linked post, sounds like going with HO front and rear bars in combination with the Hotckis springs will put the car pretty neutral.

Why not just go with the Hotckis bars and keep it a package?
 
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Discussion Starter #8
Originally posted by Wayne Bengston:
From that linked post, sounds like going with HO front and rear bars in combination with the Hotckis springs will put the car pretty neutral.

Why not just go with the Hotckis bars and keep it a package?
That would be my first best guess, but I have read that some dont like the Hotchkis bars because the rears have broken, and also they dont give you the best handling. I really dont know, which is why I am asking :D . But it seems like it would be best to match suspension parts by brand.

Mike
 
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Discussion Starter #9
From what I understand, the complete Hotckis package gives pretty good handling.

I would expect the Hotckis springs combined with HO f/r bars to give more roll control than almost any other available combinations.

A possible exceptions would be GW front springs combined with the wagon springs and HOs F&R, though this would be higher than you want and possibly oversteer oriented. Has anyone run that combo?

At any rate, you reach a point when you have so much roll control that it can be too skittish on rough, broken, or wet pavement. Don't know if that would be the case here.

Maybe Ed will jump in.
 
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Discussion Starter #10
I have the Hotchkis springs, HO rear and I've run both the F-body and HO front bar. Both are ok. HO front is better, i.e., more stable. F-body front bar was just a little bit squirrely, but never felt unsafe. I have never played with my shock settings (I have the HALs) to see what that will do to it. Right now, and when I had the F-body bar, I run them at 4 all around. HTH
 
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Discussion Starter #11
Originally posted by Wayne Bengston:
From what I understand, the complete Hotckis package gives pretty good handling.

I would expect the Hotckis springs combined with HO f/r bars to give more roll control than almost any other available combinations.

A possible exceptions would be GW front springs combined with the wagon springs and HOs F&R, though this would be higher than you want and possibly oversteer oriented. Has anyone run that combo?

At any rate, you reach a point when you have so much roll control that it can be too skittish on rough, broken, or wet pavement. Don't know if that would be the case here.

Maybe Ed will jump in.
Hey Wayne... would you say that the stock SS suspension performs poorly as compared to the aftermarket setups mentioned above (HO f/r bars)? I guess what I am really wondering is why is it so hard to have luxury car ride with Corvette or F-body handling? Maybe GM didnt put much thought into the suspension? Or maybe they thought it woul dride too hard with bigger bars?
 
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Discussion Starter #12
Mike, if you want Ed(autocrosser) to respond, you may want to change the title of this thread. From what I've seen he is taking a dim view of general questions directed to only one person.
 
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Discussion Starter #13
Originally posted by protour4ever:
Mike, if you want Ed(autocrosser) to respond, you may want to change the title of this thread. From what I've seen he is taking a dim view of general questions directed to only one person.
Ed will probably chyme in when he gets a chance, since he's the moderator he's bound to catch the thread. I'm pleased with the info I've gotten thus far. We have a lot of knowledgeable people on the forum and the turn out here has been pretty good! Thanks guys.

Ed, whenever you're ready buddy I'd love to hear your take on this.

Mike
 
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Discussion Starter #14
Hey Wayne...
From a handling point of view, the stock suspension setup is less than optimal. That said, even stock, the car does pretty well for what it is, a 4 door family sedan, that with the more typical domestic suspension, is a boat...

You have to remember, the basic platform was designed with a smooth boat-like ride as a priority. We've pushed them far farther than the engineers ever expected.

I'd really like to see an aftermarket front control arm setup that is better designed than the stock setup. The stock design sucks when it comes to keeping the tire level with the pavement at any other body position than dead level, which is why healthy doses of roll control are needed to make the BeaSSt handle like a sports car.
 
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Discussion Starter #15
I'm not trying to contradict the earlier post on rates, which may be more accurate than what the various companies claim. I've been colecting sway bar rates for a while now so here are the claims made to me by the respective manufacturers tech lines. The Addco, ect. 1 1/4 solids, front are 44% stiffer than stock, Hotchkis 1 7/16 hollow is 107% stiffer than stock, HO 1 3/8 solid is 147% stiffer than stock. The rear 1 1/4 solids are 144% stiffer than stock, the various 1 1/2 solids are 400+% stiffer than stock. If correct, then the stiffer Hotchkis front springs would need a softer rear spring than the Hotchkis to induce a neutral set up, even with HO bars front and rear.Or if someone custom made a rear 1 3/8 solid bar, with the HO front, it should incline toward slight understeer.
 
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Discussion Starter #16
Originally posted by Mike Lowry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by protour4ever:
Mike, if you want Ed(autocrosser) to respond, you may want to change the title of this thread. From what I've seen he is taking a dim view of general questions directed to only one person.
Ed will probably chyme in when he gets a chance, since he's the moderator he's bound to catch the thread. I'm pleased with the info I've gotten thus far. We have a lot of knowledgeable people on the forum and the turn out here has been pretty good! Thanks guys.

Ed, whenever you're ready buddy I'd love to hear your take on this.

Mike
</font>[/QUOTE]AutocroSSer, What do you think abouut the setup?

Morry
 
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Discussion Starter #18
With the Hotchkis springs F+R, the HO bars would be too biased toward oversteer. The Hotchkis sways are only a little stiffer rear than front. 144%+107% over stock. Even if the HO front is 147% stiffer in front, rear is 440% stiffer. Not a great choice for the Hotchkis springs if used front and rear.
 
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Discussion Starter #20
Put it this way....my suspension setup this year (once you get the rear posi actually DOING something....i.e. not stock......and get the front setup right) has shown that the super-stiff HO rear is a bit overrated


In other words, the car is faster with a smaller rear bar. In fact, I'm running a rear bar right now that is barely bigger than stock!

The numbers in Scott's ancient article don't tell the whole story, in other words
 
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