[SSandman]

Not to shameless plug, but if you look in the for sale section I am selling just about a complete forged 396cid lt1 stroker twin turbo setup for big power with turbos, BOV, waste gates and countless other parts needed to make/support the power. The whole setup is only missing a few things and some fabrication work to rig up the turbos but it would save you thousands of dollars. I was shooting for 700rwhp and it should make it without a problem. It's about $14,000 worth of parts that I'm selling for $7500, most of it brand new (bottom end fresh out of machine shop, AI 200cc top end new in box, custom AGP/Borg Warner Turbos, precision waste gates, TIAL BOV new in box etc...)

I have a potential buyer lined up for the short block now but I'd rather sell the setup as a whole instead.

 

[SSandman]

And not to burst your bubble, but you can put all the aftermarket parts you want in a GM 8.5 rear and most will still consider it an 8.5 rear, the limiting factor on most rears being the size of the ring gear and that just isn't changing regardless of what parts you put in it. With that said, it's probably a moot point because these rears when built right will last a long time on high hp TRACK cars racing on slicks. Chances are, you're not going to dial the suspension in like Mike Harris or may not even do a lot of drag slick track racing, and if you're hooking hard the rear will stay alive just fine at 700-800hp. just be sure you have a 1350 yoke along with the built rear. When I built the rear for my B body I used an eaton post, strange 1350 yoke, solid spacer to replace the crush collar and factory replacement moser axles. I'm not worried about it handling 700+hp, but my car is a street car and will probably never see a drag track on 29" slicks.

Same goes for transmissions, hooking up hard is what is really going to hurt them but 4l60e's really have to be built by someone reputable for me to trust them in any high HP build. I had mine built by Cahall Performance Transmission after seeing 4l60e's he built first hand go deep 9's in heavy B bodies.


I agree with what a few guys said here that 700+hp in a street car without all the modern traction controls and what not is probably more than you'd ever need, BUT, these cars have the potential to fit much wider rear meats than newer cars (like the 335/35/17 drag radials I have on the back of mine with just a little frame notching) and they are pretty heavy, so something like 600rwhp on the street isn't too unreasonable. I owned a caprice that was built by a forum member that used to be here and the car put down 650rwhp. Gutted out and on drag radials it could get very scary on the street. Then again, and I won't endorse street racing by any means (I personally only race on the track), but because cars are making so much power these days it doesn't seem like anybody runs from a red light anymore. Most guys I know with big power cars are running into other big power cars on the highway, from 60MPH rolls, and in that scenario I don't know if it's even possible to have too much power. Highway racing is like a dyno queen's wet dream and that seems to be what late model guys do these days. You see guys dumping 20 or 30 grand into engine setups to make 1000hp and the cars still only run low 11's at the track because they didn't drop a dime into building up the chassis to handle that kind of power off the line. Nobody really seems to care though. That 9 second drag car isn't beating the 1100hp, big single turbo late model from a 60mph roll even if it does only cut an 11.0 with a 2.9 60 foot.

 

[rodney]

While I would LOVE to pick that engine setup from you I am realistically 4-5 years out and I know there is no way your holding onto anything that long.

The transmission currently in the car was supposedly built up some but didn't last 13k miles with the stock engine with just 3.73 gears in it. So I will be looking for a engine/trans package to drop in.

Since I will be doing a frame off restore I will be looking at doing whatever upgrades I can do to the suspension to make it hook up better. I plan to box the frame and likely notch the frame if it gets me more wheel space. While I don't expect it to be a daily driver I will try to set it up to be a comfortable and durable ride. Hoping on going with a roots style SC but will see what is available when I have the cash to do something.

I retire in 4 years and currently going to school so I can start another career and work for another 15-20 years before retiring for good. Once I retire and start my new career I will have the money and some time to be able to work on projects like this. Until then I can only dream, research and plan.

Rodney

 

[rodney]

Maybe I should share a little bit about WHY I want to build up my old 9C1 and what I want to do with it. It goes back to the Dreamapalooza I went to. I want to believe it was in maybe 2001?

Was a great week. The Drag Race day was rained out and on my way back to Grand Rapids, MI from Detroit after doing the dream cruise I almost lost my car during a rain storm. There was enough water over the road when I hit it that LOTS of water went over the hood and blinded me for about 50 yards. I saw the "puddle" about 2 seconds before I hit it. One of the scariest times of my life. All I could do is hold on, try to steer straight, no brakes, no gas and hope I didn't hit anything. Luckily it was like 3am so no one was on the road at the time.

But other than that, I had a great time racing my car in the parking lot of some minor league hockey team. I got good enough with my car that I actually beat the winning time after the "official" racing was done. My tire pressure wasn't right and I was taking off in 2nd gear (Damn 9C1... Didn't know at the time when in 2nd it would take off in 2nd gear. My first run it kept shifting into 3rd gear and messing me up so I ran the rest of the runs in 2nd gear.) If I had more power I would have done a little better.

During the "road race" at the track I can't remember at the moment, on one of my passes I wanted to see how fast I could get on the straight away. There was a 180degree turn after the straight away. I tested the limits of my brakes by keeping on it until I hit 90MPH... I did so at the 100' mark and then immediately hit the brakes as hard as possible until just before they skid and ABS would have kicked in. I then spun the wheel around and punched the gas doing a partial power slide through the 180 degree turn that had another 90degree turn that went into a sweeping left turn into the start/stop line. The track expert made a point to find me out after this run and asked me what I was doing, he watched me because he heard me accelerating way too long and thought I was going to loose it in the sand. I told him what I did and why and he sort of made the impression he was impressed.

So anyhow.. Its MISSL's fault I want to build a monster vehicle. Watching how the 400-500 HP B-Bodies were handling these tracks really made me catch the bug even if I couldn't do anything about it at the time. So my ultimate goal will be to build a durable car that handles well and puts the traction down. I want to be able to do bracket drag racing with respectable times, I want to be able to do the road races and not wish I had more power and be able to do the parking lot type setups and power through them too. Of course I could just pick up a used CTS-V and have it all out of the gate but I just like the idea of building out a car that has a lot of sentimental value to me. So I expect, especially with a frame off restore, to massively upgrade the brakes, suspension, frame etc. This certainly won't be close to stock in any way if I can help it...

So realistically, I will likely be happy with 600-700 hp. But with a car this heavy If I hit 800-900 HP I won't be unhappy...

Rodney

 

[gbhs72]

That's a nice dream and ambition. I've always said that "You can't take a mans dreams away." Go for it. I have always been impressed with how my 93 9C1 with TBI ran & handled. I would be happy with 275-300 HP out of mine.

Mark: Snowman-33

 

[SSandman]

I know guys are quick to say "why do you think you need X hp level", but if your budget supports it, with forced induction there is really no reason to NOT over build. There is always a way to tone the boost back if you ARE making more HP than you can use, but if you underbuild and want more power later on you basically just threw money away on all the parts that are going to have to be replaced.

Truth is, as long as your wallet can handle it, there isn't much sacrifice in drivability when going with a big power forced induction setup (not like trying to build a crazy N/A setup where you'll end up with giant solid roller cam that barely idles and requires a 5500 stall). A turbo'd 900whp car is going to behave more or less the same as a turbo'd 500whp car when driving around town, out of boost, and you can always dial that 900whp car back to 500.



Just understand the money involved for building a reliable 800hp setup, not just in the motor and forced induction system but in cooling, fueling and drivetrain.

 

[rodney]

Yup, I certainly plan to build up my car to handle the power.

Going to be a frame off restore and building the car from the ground up.

Which reminds me... I am still 4-5 years out but SSandman, didn't you do some work on your Frame? Seems like I followed you boxing your frame and doing some other stuff... Still looking at doing all that with mine but still a while out. I want to do whatever modifications are necessary to the frame and suspension to support the power and get it to the ground. I want it to perform in both Autocross and Dragstrip with preference to Autocross.

Not sold on Turbos or Centrifugal Super chargers. I feel more comfortable going with a Roots style blower. If I stay with my LT1 block I would likely go with a Magnuson and have the intake fabricated for me. Or talk to ZZ-Performance, which is local to me. They do work on the CTS-V super chargers and make a bunch of stuff so I can't imagine they couldn't get me going with a supercharger even if the intake has to be modified to accept it. Might be cheaper to go with a Turbo or Centrifugal charger but I still remembering hearing about the Lightning SC's mounted to a stock LT1. Someone in detroit was doing them for a while.

Rodney

 

[SSandman]

Yup, I certainly plan to build up my car to handle the power.

Going to be a frame off restore and building the car from the ground up.

Which reminds me... I am still 4-5 years out but SSandman, didn't you do some work on your Frame? Seems like I followed you boxing your frame and doing some other stuff... Still looking at doing all that with mine but still a while out. I want to do whatever modifications are necessary to the frame and suspension to support the power and get it to the ground. I want it to perform in both Autocross and Dragstrip with preference to Autocross.

Not sold on Turbos or Centrifugal Super chargers. I feel more comfortable going with a Roots style blower. If I stay with my LT1 block I would likely go with a Magnuson and have the intake fabricated for me. Or talk to ZZ-Performance, which is local to me. They do work on the CTS-V super chargers and make a bunch of stuff so I can't imagine they couldn't get me going with a supercharger even if the intake has to be modified to accept it. Might be cheaper to go with a Turbo or Centrifugal charger but I still remembering hearing about the Lightning SC's mounted to a stock LT1. Someone in detroit was doing them for a while.

Rodney

Call me a hypocrite for saying this, as I am working on a whipple charged B15 LSX 376 swap in my 96 now, but I really do think a self contained procharger is probably a better deal than the roots blower. The roots will make plenty of torque down low, but at the power levels you are talking about, you aren't going to need any more low end torque....hooking up will be hard enough. The centrifugal blowers tend to generate less heat and are more efficient at higher power levels. Easier to fit a larger CFM blower as well.

Roots blowers are really cool on applications that you can just buy a kit of parts for and bolt it on out of the box. Also, you tend to have a little less belt slip issues with them as you eliminate a big contributing factor, bracket flex.

I don't know if I'd bother with going through the custom work required to make one work on an LT1 though. Fabricating the manifold, building a drive setup that clears the LT water pump, it's a lot of money for something that really isn't going to be better in any way than a centrifugal blower for a big power car.

Turbos are awesome, I love them but I also backed out of my twin turbo project for two reason. First, I just don't have the time for the fabrication work anymore on this car with possibly purchasing my first house soon and second, I don't like the idea of turbos for a car that I want to be daily drivable. Too much heat, too much maintenance with keeping clamps tight, more frequent oil changes etc... and too many potential for problems when the miles start to pile up. A twin turbo is just a lot more to go wrong. A single turbo wouldn't be too bad though, but still more potential for issues than a centrifugal or a roots blower IMO but certainly the way to go for all out power. Once you get a turbo car working right though, it is by far better performance wise than any of the alternatives, and the ability to dial in boost is invaluable.


Of course, the centrifugal blower isn't necessarily a cake walk for our cars either as the only kit that was ever made was the now long gone NRP kit which IMO absolutely sucked by design. Main bracket design was too flimsy and the tensioner setup sucked.


I boxed and notched the chassis on my car. I did it on a few other B bodies since then and have since done things a little differently, but the general idea is just close the C channels up for rigidity, notch the rear rail for a wider tire and weld in some gussets at the front section of over the axle rails right on the inside corners where the chassis becomes thin after notching.

 

[rodney]

Maybe I should ask what types of suspension upgrades can be done to help for getting the power to the ground and keeping control for autocross style racing?

I already have over sized sway bars and extended length control arms with the tops being adjustable. (I believe the ones holding the rear end are called control arms?)

I have Bill Harper upper and lower A-Arms and have done both of the brake proportioning bold mods.

I already expected to have to do some major up grades to the cooling system and probably just get my 9C1 steering box rebuilt. Plan to add external coolers for steering and transmission and getting the biggest radiator I can fit. Have heard different theories on Electric or Mechanical fans as well. (Mechanicall push more CFM but Electric are less load on the system and can run with the engine off. When paired with electric water pump and electric fans it can keep a "race" car cooler between runs. )

 

[SSandman]

Maybe I should ask what types of suspension upgrades can be done to help for getting the power to the ground and keeping control for autocross style racing?

I already have over sized sway bars and extended length control arms with the tops being adjustable. (I believe the ones holding the rear end are called control arms?)

I have Bill Harper upper and lower A-Arms and have done both of the brake proportioning bold mods.

I already expected to have to do some major up grades to the cooling system and probably just get my 9C1 steering box rebuilt. Plan to add external coolers for steering and transmission and getting the biggest radiator I can fit. Have heard different theories on Electric or Mechanical fans as well. (Mechanicall push more CFM but Electric are less load on the system and can run with the engine off. When paired with electric water pump and electric fans it can keep a "race" car cooler between runs. )

A GOOD set of electric fans will flow plenty. It's hard for even a good set of electric fans to match the flow of a good mechanical fan (especially when measuring flow against resistance and not just free flow) but there are too many benefits to electric fans IMO to not use them. Better control, less power loss up top, as you mentioned the ability to cool while the engine is off and better cooling at idle versus most non-clutch mechanical fans.

Suspension and brakes, we are talking for 700+HP here? honestly, there is no limit to what "should" be done considering the weight of these cars when pushing that much power. No stock B body brake system, I don't care what tweaks are made, is going to be effective on a 700hp 4200 pound boat on an autocross track. I wouldn't use anything less than top end Wilwoods, the biggest you can fit behind 18" wheels, and expect to even go through those pretty often when really pushing the car around a road race track.

For suspension, every bolt in suspension part you can upgrade: tubular upper and lower front A arms, perhaps a coil over setup for adjustability at the track. DMR triangulation bars at the rear. RMS frame brace between the rear frame rails. All of this and you still have a wet noodle of a chassis. I would seriously consider boxing the chassis.

If I were to do mine over, I would have without a doubt built a watts link setup for the rear. I've installed them on several on other cars (F bodies) replacing panhard setups and the feel and control is just amazing. The closest you can get to late model independent rear cars. Tad (protools) incorporated a panhard bar into his triangulated 4 link and had excellent results on the road course/autox track. I still think a WATTS link would be the ultimate though as it should in theory eliminate any bind as the suspension goes through it's range of motion while fully controlling side to side movement.

The real issue you are going to run into with big forced induction HP on a road race car is intake air temps. Depending on what you use (turbo, blower, PD blower) keeping intake air temps in check is going to be paramount. At a certain point the intercooler is going to heat soak, IATS will rise and you'll either detonate and destroy the motor or if you're lucky, you'll have a computer that will read IAT's and pull timing accordingly and lose power.

1/4 mile racing is easy with forced induction, but road racing is a whole other animal. You see guys making 900+hp on eBay intercoolers making lightening fast 1/4 mile passes with no issues. If you want to see what works with road racing though, just look at late model track ready cars like CTS-V's, ZL1 cameras, Z06 Vettes, Hellcats etc... Some of them use 3 intercoolers and often times owners swap those out for even larger intercoolers for track duty. OF course PD blowers don't tend to be the most temperature friendly, it may be easier with something like a procharger.