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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've read many posts on the ICs and heard George mention the no hop bars by Dick Miller Racing, but I have of yet to contact anyone regarding the bars themselves. I wanted to see if anyone has the bars installed and what the comparison is to the ICs.

Another question is how either would affect the Autocrossing / Road course capability of the car (I suck as a driver, but the car shouldn't ;) )?

As Bostic knows, I am in hock with him to a set of his ICs that allow me to run the LCAs in either position (high or low) that would allow for a swaybar if necessary, which the Hotchkis bar may be able to be used anyway. They are slated to be on the car sometime when I get the time.

Dang, I'm rambling again...any help is appreciated. :D
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
If the no hop bars you are speaking of are the ones that raise the upper arms at the diff to move the instant center they work VERY well in a straight line for traction under accel and that is about it.
The anti squat that they induce under power that plants the tires so well acts against you under decel. It turns in "Uncle Squat" and reduces traction as it tries to pull the back end of the car down. Also the side loading on those extended brackets during hard cornering tends to work them loose over time.
They place the arms very close to the floor and on a stock height or lowered car you may see them smacking the floor. Not really what a susp likes. I had them on a GM "A" body years ago and although they planted the tires well when I launched, they did nothing else well. They came out and are collecting dust around here somewhere.
As always, just my opinion but I actually used them. They used to be sold under the “Genuine Susp” brand.
Regards, Gerry
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks Gerry, I was looking for real world experience. they do sit high on the pumpkin so I figured there would be clearance issues. I didn't know if the ICs did the same type of thing when cornering or during decel.
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Chris,

I'm running the Metco Instant Centers with
Hotchkis extended lowers. We did have to modify the Hotchkis arms to make the Metco Pieces work, Had to turn down the spacer and narrow the bushings in the control arm.
I also am running the Hotchkis rear bar
with the Instant Centers. On the Road you
can't even tell the Instant Centers are there. As for the Track, I'm cutting some lazy 1.7 60 foots launching off the foot brake. If youw ant to see a pic of how it loos from the rear go hereMy POS and scroll about 2/3 of the way down. The Sway Bar sits low, but I've never had a problem with it except when I was backing over a curb onto some grass but how often do you do that.

Hope this helps
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks Paul,

I was going to weld a set of Bostic's homemade IC's onto the bottom bracket. This will allow usage of my J&M Ext. Lowers (don't laugh, they were a budget item) in either hole. I would be able to run stock or otherwise. This isn't a bad situation, but I was wondering about the daily drivability in the lower position. Concerns are of the rear "unloading" even more during decel. and even worse in a turn on a road course.

Just needed some driving experience.
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Hate to offer a differing train of thought here, but....the Dick Miller stuff is the way to go.

I manufacture a relocation unit for G-bodies, and soon to be B-bodies that does everything his does plus.

You do nor want to raise the I/C of car any more than it is.

The loading/ unloading is a valid point, but only talked about never experienced by 99.5% of drivers.

The ability to adjust the I/C for drag and road racing is what you want.

The factory I/C is ridiculous.

I will post after the B-Body prototype is installed in my 96.
The G-body unit works great, even on max kill for drag setting I never experienced any bad manners on the highway at triple digits.

The old no-hop bar worked for drag but had several engineering issues, I have a set collecting dust also.

Please do the math on your geometry and intersect points before jumping on the bandwagon of the lower IC brackets.

Just my O2
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
"Let me 'splain...no too much...Let me sum up."

Ok, Mike...let me see if I can understand what you just put on e-paper.


You will be making a "relocation unit...for B-bodies that does everything his (Dick Miller) does plus." Good idea, but I would like some more specifics on how it is better. Are you taking into consideration the clearance issues with the raised upper mount points for the no hop bars or are you just lowering the lower trailing arms?

You do nor (not) want to raise the I/C of car any more than it is. I think this is understood if you mean that one does not want to "raise" the lower trailing arms. This will push the IC more toward the front which is even worse than stock. So again I ask if this is what your kit will do?

The loading/ unloading is a valid point, but only talked about never experienced by 99.5% of drivers. So this other .5% that drive their car hard into a hairpin turn at triple digits and then push hard into the breaks before the apex usually hit the wall butt-first?


The ability to adjust the I/C for drag and road racing is what you want. By adjusting, does this mean that your kit will make it possible to move the uppers and/or lowers to suit your driving environment?

The factory I/C is ridiculous. I think we all agree on that point as well

I will post after the B-Body prototype is installed in my 96.
The G-body unit works great, even on max kill for drag setting I never experienced any bad manners on the highway at triple digits. This helps ease the nervousness a bit, but how was it on the twisty back roads or tracks?

The old no-hop bar worked for drag but had several engineering issues, I have a set collecting dust also. Could you elaborate on these issues?

Please do the math on your geometry and intersect points before jumping on the bandwagon of the lower IC brackets. This is the statement that really got me confused. I thought that you were for them and not the no-hop bars. Now you just said that they are not what you need, you just need to do some math. Well, after I do math and figure out that the IC of my car is way to far forward. How do you propose to fix this with out either raising the upper support on the pumpkin or lowering the mounting points on the LTAs? Inquiring minds want to know. :D

Thanks for your time.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hey Chris,

The picture below shows where my IC is. It hooks so hard from take-off the some witnesses told me the rims flattened my Hoosiers down to the pavement for a split second. Now THAT is hard hooking!!


When I did that 1.67 run, I ran the juice with 15psi in the tires and still unloaded the suspension and was spinning in the last half of the 60.

My problem has been a too loose front shock setting, which allowed the car to settle back and unload 10' to 15' out and start spinning for the rest of the 60' and beyond.

I went from 0 on the HALs to 3, and now I'm beginning to see results. My last 9 NA runs have been between 1.89 and 1.85 every time, on 3 different days, where before, I would vary between 2.20 and 1.95, depending on track conditions

Looks like I need to tighten the front shocks a bit more on the juice to bring the 60s in line. With my MPH, I should be seeing a minimum of 1.55s.

 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
My plans are to still try the ICs that Bostic uses...nothing has changed there, but the convos that are earlier in this post are interesting and made me have questions.

Anyway, I was gonna try a QA1 setting of 1 for starters and see if I can put the tires to the pavement. From that point I will watch my spin just before and after the 60' and adjust from there.

I'll make the things hook if I have to spray belt dressing on them like I did as a teenager on the street. :D :eek: :D
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Hey Chriss,

I have the Metco IC brackets, which are essentially the same thing Bostic uses, except he made his own. They lower the rear of the trailing arms.
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Yeah...he has the pattern and made a set for me. "Gotta get me some pieces from Sweden..woohoo!"
:D


Seriously though, his allow me to put the lowers back to stock if I find that the rear unloads too much in the curves.
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I don't have pics right now....but I am able to run the rear swaybar with your ICs by putting it ON TOP of the Lower Trailing Arms. It does require you to unbolt one of the lowers to get clearance between the brackets as you slide the bar into place. You can then bolt the lowers into "race" mode with a rear bar.

Try it out...seems to work very well.
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I understand...I keep them in race position all the time even on the street as well, plus the rear sway helps keep the rear planted equally...according to Dick Miller Racing.

Dick Miller Racing

So I get great street traction along with handling plus track capability as well all thanks to you. :D :cool: :D
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Chris, can you provide any pictures or further advice on performing this mod? I want to run instant centers on my car all the time, but I also don't want to drop my sway bar that low, knowing me I'll catch it on a sewer cover (at 40 mph) thats sticking up on one of the horrible MA roads I drive on all the time.
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Here's what I can post about the ICM brackets that I have along with my stock length Metco RCAs.

The car feels alot better during normal driving. I have no rear sway bar and I don't know that it is gone. I feel the road alot more. The car handles as good as it did before or better since I don't usually push the car hard into corners but have on occasion. What i'm trying to say is i'm not scared or worried about the car losing control since the rear sway bar is gone and the ICM brackets are installed

As far as drag racing goes, I just landed a 1.89 60' time on street tires and hope to do better once I race in better air(best 60' time on drag radials with stock RCAs is a 1.84, so i'm only .05 away from doing the same with street tires with the ICM brackets). I don't think that having a rear sway bar will help any with drag racing since I have had better results just like the other thousands of racers that run ICM brackets with no rear sway bar(how many drag racers have a rear sway bar to help out during the launch???). Less squeaks and the car is alot safer to drive in bad weather since there is alot more weight being applied to the back tires(something that almost everyone forgets about, but I have a daily driver that goes through all 4 seasons so it means alot to me).

I wish I can let you drive my car to get an idea of what these ICM brackets can do for you(and I wish the weather would be really bad so you can see what a good set of tires and ICM brackets can do). I think there are alot of ideas on what works and what doesn't, but I am giving you some data from the track as well as my daily driving experiences since the ICM install. Good luck in figuring out what you want to do, it won't be easy.
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I was really interested in what Nelson Comp had to say.............till I saw the thread was a year old :( . I am waiting for either KaotiSS or BMR to come out with a set of ICMs.

I would however love to be able to either mount the bar above orswitch the mounting location from stock to lower and back. I am also really interested in what Steve is saying about foul weather driving since I see a lot of it. If what he says is half true I might just get a 4th winter out of my well worn snowtires :D . That damn Edge TC just beats the hell out of them. :D
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I'll look into what the cost would be for fabricating another 10 pairs batch of my IC-brackets (weld-ons).
That would be the same as shown on my web site and those of "ClawSS"

Every brand of control bars fit with these.
 
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