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Discussion Starter #1
Jet is offering a 24 hour sale of 35% off everything using’JET35’ entered in checkout as the coupon.
I’ve already got a laptop I have set aside specifically for tuning my car.
What are your thoughts on this product for this price.
I have the $ as part of my car resto budget, is this a good time to purchase the 14005 DST , or is it a complete waste of money ?
And would I still have to do the whole use of another program, to save, makes changes, and flash my (spare) pcm ?
Or does the program have all that included ?
$325 from JET is hard to pass up...
I’m listing in here because I value the tuners and performance experienced people out theres advice and input. But I appreciate anyone with firsthand experiences or information that’s relevant.
If I’m off topic here please feel free to bump this thread where it belongs.
Thank you for your time and energy.
 

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So others can see the answer:
JET's DST for OBD2 LT1 is not a COMPLETE waste of money, but I'll never prefer it over TunerCAT's OBD1 LT1, even if JET brought it all the way down to $185, which would literally be impossible for them.
TunerCAT's product support blows JET out of the water.

If one must go cheaper, there's always
TunerPro for tuning the .bin file, for free
$EEhack for flashing the .bin file, for free
An OBD1 LT1 cable from TunerCAT for $85 because he'll never get enough credit for keeping the IronBlock LT1 alive until someone else figured out how to make the Gen3 pcm 8coil conversion easy.
 

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1996 ImpalaSS WX3
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Discussion Starter #3
I believe your to be correct in your statements, that being the case, can I also use the ALDL cord supplied by JET to use different software or is it a proprietary cable that can only be used with the DST ?
I suppose I should be asking the JET guy but I’m guessing you probably also know the answer to that question.
Thank you Marky.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
If I ever get up enough nerve to attempt the knock sensors changeout, and pcm swap, or get a Moates OBDI pcm altered to accept the stock sensors, I’ll buy and register the TunerCat software, and go from there. I’m looking to do the 24X conversion soon, perhaps I’ll get the appropriate pcm configuration over to OBDI at the same time.
Thanks again for everything Marky.
I so appreciate your advice and activity here in this forum !
David...
 

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What really pisses me off about Jet is the single user licence for something you can't even log with and reported crap support
That being said, HP Tuners and EFI live is the same licence deal unless you pay large money.
Those of us who were lucky enough to buy Tunercat OBD2 before it sold to Jet, got the same thing as Jet but can do as many PCMs as we want per licence type.
AND continuing fantastic support.

IF you are truly planning on the 24x conversion, then wait and buy HP tuners once.

24x is OBD2 ,

Is there something pressing you need to do now?
 

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… can I also use the ALDL cord supplied by JET to use different software or is it a proprietary cable that can only be used with the DST ?
I suppose I should be asking the JET guy but I’m guessing you probably also know the answer to that question.
'fraid I do not know the answer, but I'd not be surprised if JET's cable is proprietary.
Frankly, I hope the JET guy exceeds our expectations, or you may be VERY disappointed soon.
… I’m looking to do the 24X conversion soon …
When are you moving out of California?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Oh damn.
Are you telling me the TorqHead 24x isn’t legal in California ???
I know you’re not the person to ask about California regulations but do you know why it’s not ?
I can’t think of any good reasons.
Unfortunately I’m sure you’re probably correct.
I’ll have to look into it
Damn.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
No nothing pressing 95Wagon.
I’ve had a dedicated for tuning laptop for 6 months now.
The DST 14005 went on sale at 35% off and I had the extra $...
So I bought one.
I wanted to be able to plug something in, and start looking at the basic parameters of tuning, Speedo and fan controls etc...
Sometimes I have more money than sense.
Thank you for the response 95...
 

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Not THE person to ask, but A person, with A good reason …

Why is modernizing the Gen2 IronBlock LT1 V8 with a Gen3 LS? pcm and 8 ignition coils not legal in kalefonya?
It improves MpG and emissions! Why would that be illegal? What in da actual frak? This does NOT MAKE SENSE!
(coughcoughcough)
CARB wants you to buy a newer CAR, or at the very least, kiss the CARB ring and pay considerable CARB tribute fees for them to test and certify the mod, before a CARB rebbe blesses it with a CARB E.O. number.
Quite a few mods either have no negative effect on or improve emissions and MpGs, but the CARB will NEVER approve these mods before getting paid to test and bless such mods. Emissions and MpGs are secondary to CARB's profits.

Older-car enthusiasts of EVERY car brand would leap at the chance to LEGALLY upgrade their pre-OBD2 engines with OBD2 pcms; but such mods are not legal for pretty much the same reason that the TorqHead upgrade is not legal (although some are easier to get away with).

Even GM would prefer that you buy another new car, instead of keeping and upgrading your old car - otherwise GM would sell CARB-approved Gen3 Gen4 or Gen5 upgrade kits themselves.

You MIGHT be able to get away with upgrading to the 97-2002 OBD2 0411 pcm that operates the L31 V8.
In terms of OBD2 sensor inputs and outputs, there are no meaningful differences between an OBD2 L31 and an OBD2 LT1.
They also both use a distributor and only one coil. Some repinning is all that it would take.
Only the most paranoid emissions inspector with no sex life would bother to look hard enough to wag a finger at the 0411 pcm, especially in the stock location under an emissions legal intake behind the left headlight. To make it even less obvious, powdercoat or paint it glinty grey.

96 and 97 LT1 Camaro and Firebird owners have already been doing this for several years.
(When 93 - 95 OBD1 LT1 F-cars upgrade to OBD2, they both ignore the OBD2 LT1 pcm and avoid JET's LT1 DST, and upgrade to the OBD2 0411 L31 pcm.)
 

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SoCalChlln, you have a Private Message / Conversation …
In a few years we're pretty sure you'll be able to testify 1sthand as to JET's nearly nonexistent, never better than competent, usually inadequate tech support.
For the record, TunerCAT (John? Think it's actually just one man) has been giving excellent tech support for around 2 decades and counting, which is why I never bother to mention any other tuning cables; TunerCAT deserves our thanks and continued support.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I would love to give financial support as well as product use and advertising to John (whoever he is) and have things go much simpler and easy.
I’m about to cancel the DST order.
they haven’t even shipped it yet.
At this point I hate Califuckedia, the place and the politics.
But my family is here...
Although I have family in Arizona also.
hmmm...
Might be time for a different change.
Thank you for all your help Marky.
And for all the time and energy you put into it.
Either I need to move, or do a LS swap.
Which LS engine is 350ci / 5.7 liter ?
According to Califuckedia I can upgrade but it has to be the same cubic inch or less, and if I’m gonna do it, I’m going to want all 350 of those cubic inches back.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Thank you 95Wagon for your input as well, it’s always appreciated.
 

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I'd rather give TunerCAT $370 than give JET $185.
When JET can afford to charge $185 for the OBD2 LT1 DST, I'll let Wendy Testeberger beat me down in the playground, and then claim that I'm still cool.

Do not try to get someone from CARB to explain the 'logic' behind letting you upgrade the engine, but not the ignition or the pcm on your present engine.
I do not want to learn about your brain leaking out your ears.

GM made Gen4 V8s in 7.0L, 6.2L, 6.0L, 5.3L, and 'who gives a rat sass about a displacement that got superseded by a frakken V6?'.
Of GM's Gen4 V8s, you're stuck with 5.3L / 325 cubic inches; LMG, LC9, LH9.
Heed: the ones I did NOT mention are NOT worth your time or money.
With the Gen4 V8s, no one has yet figured out how to avoid the eventual onset of increased oil consumption traced to the use of 4cyl mode, except to disable it.
So disable 4 cyl mode!

GM made Gen3 V8s in 6.0L, 5.7L, 5.3L, and some [email protected]$$ bu11$h!t that should not bother to be noticed mentioned or discussed.
Of GM's Gen3 V8s, LS1 and LS6 are 5.7L, 345 cubic inches. I'd bet CARB checks block casting numbers; they're paranoid, and want an excuse to come after you.
The 5.3L / 325 cubic inch engines you'd begrudgingly accept are known as LM7, L59, and LM4. Don't pay any premium for an L33.
Better than you think, especially after programming. I'd prefer a Gen3 5.3L V8 over the Gen4s.
I've little use for anything over 400 horse, but I've PLENTY use for a 400 horse V8 that gets highway MpGs in the mid 30s, no joke.

Can you afford to stroke it? They'd never see THAT coming.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Yes I’ve thought of stoking to the 383ci kit with a forged crank peened rods and forged pistons.
Living in the Desert where it gets 120 in the summer I’ve avoided stroked engines on my Harleys due to the increase in heat generated by the longer stroke per rpm.
But those are air cooled, if you tell me it’s negligible in a water cooled V8, I’ll toss that out of the equation. I could bore it .020” over and have the ability to do it one more time if it ever became necessary but that’s what, a whole 5-8 cubic inch increase over stock ?
Hardly worth it.
Stroking is not going to be something they can or would check (I don’t think).
sounds like I’m in the market for an LS1 or LS6...
Is there a reason you’d go with the Gen3 LS 5.3 over the 5.7 ?
I wonder if they’ll make me put my disconnected, inactive air pump back on the LS platform also.
As always, I appreciate your time.
thank you Marky.
 

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The logic for CARB letting you upgrade the engine and not the ignition or PCM is simple. The engine upgrade STILL has to include all the original equipment works that go with it, intact and operational... It too can not have ignition or PCM upgrades. It give them the assurance that the package will still perform as the way it was tested and approved, across the whole spectrum of operating conditions.
 

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Our cooling systems - when working properly - have no problem keeping 409 cubic inch LT1s cool repeatedly racing down the track.

All things being equal, of course, pick 5.7L over 5.3L. Can't think of a good reason to take a 5.3L over a 5.7L.

No, the LT1 airpump stays with the LT1. Whatever emissions equipment comes with the LS1, stays with the LS1.
The logic for CARB letting you upgrade the engine and not the ignition or PCM is simple. The engine upgrade STILL has to include all the original equipment works that go with it, intact and operational … It too can not have ignition or PCM upgrades. Gives them the assurance that the package will still perform as the way it was tested and approved, across the whole spectrum of operating conditions.
The logic is too simple, actually; it seems intellectually constricted.
If the ignition or pcm upgrade is compatible with the engine, emissions and MpG always improves.
CARB's logic would appear to have an intentionally designed blind spot / stupid spot.

Upgrading an L31 or LT1 V8 with an 0411 pcm ALWAYS improves the emissions and MpG of said engines, even when stuck with only one coil, nevermind 8 coils.
Along the same lines, upgrading a Gen3 V8 with a Gen4 pcm (where feasible) ALWAYS improves emissions and MpG of the Gen3 engine. To argue otherwise is just obtuse.

It bears repeating: CARB's logic is too simple not to be either unintentionally stupid, or stupid by design.
If their major concerns were emissions and MpG, upgrading the pcm and or the ingition system of an engine would be ENCOURAGED whenever reasonably possible, not expressly prohibited.

More I think about this, the more another thought occurs:
No system can ever fail what it is no longer meant to serve or protect - and most systems eventually serve to protect themselves over and above the things they are supposed to be protecting on paper.
 

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Nope, you believe it improves. And probably does, in that case. But unless you have factual data to prove that it is no worse in the entire tested range, you can't make that claim. And when you do, you've basically have run the CARB approve tests. They don't know Marky did it right and Stevey did it wrong, so they err on side of caution. A few intellectually smart people is not what they're worried about. But can't discriminate... :)
They'd love a solutions that improves both emission and MPG, but it has to be proven, rigorously. AKA CARB sticker. In the gazillion possible combos for all the cars out there, how do they know an LT1 caprice with xxx is now better? Got to look at the whole picture.
 

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Yes, people can make mistakes, and the stuff I'm talking about has room for idiots to make LOTS of them.
But done properly - which I'll handily admit should be made an order of magnitude easier like TorqHead does - using a more modern pcm with quicker processing speed and more memory would improve the emissions and/or MpG of the engine to which it is properly adapted, throughout the entire operating range of the engine, which the upgrade pcm always either matches or exceeds.

Done properly, the Torqhead upgrade DOES improve emissions and MpG.
This is a statement of fact, personally observed; not with CARB test equipment, but with NYC emissions test equipment.
The lesser upgrade which uses an 0411 pcm with but one coil, when properly installed, also improves emissions and MpG.
Again, a personally observed fact … which almost no one here can corroborate, meaning it is of little to no help to anyone …

This is the point where I apologise for taking this thread off its rails; whether or not I've failed to get across any of what I was trying to say.
 

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Yeah, same here. Just wanting to point out that even a engine swap is not that simple in California.

As for as saying an upgrade should be allowed, even with our IM240, which hasn't been used for years, it is not a full verification and validation that a system design meets objectives. It was still a spot go/no check that equipment was working correctly in the grand scheme of things. Prior to IM240, we just had an idle sniffer test. Even testing back to back, on the same day comparing actual levels without all the other possible envirornment conditions is nearly meanless other than finding a gross offender.

A more modern pcm means nothing if the software, the .bin, the executable code, wasn't changed to match our vehicle. Our IM240 only ran on a warmed up car. Most polutants occur during cold start. Before that cats can light off. Every operating condition the car is designed for needs to addressed in the bin and reverified. Hunderds/thousands of parameters are in there, many adjusted per car/engine/drivetran combo.

While the Torqhead can be thought of as an extention of a fancier spark plugs or ignition wires, CARB does not have the staff or funding or knowledge to realize this one of thousands of non OEM designed parts is that benign.

As for getting the DST, that's a cheap price for doing anything with OBD 2. If I had a 96, i would have jumped on it. Other than connection problems, it's usually the lack on the user's tuning knowledge that is the issue and or if they restricted access to any PIDS (not sure of GM term) that were previously available. Which could limit tuning some parameters.
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Nope, you believe it improves. And probably does, in that case. But unless you have factual data to prove that it is no worse in the entire tested range, you can't make that claim. And when you do, you've basically have run the CARB approve tests. They don't know Marky did it right and Stevey did it wrong, so they err on side of caution. A few intellectually smart people is not what they're worried about. But can't discriminate... :)
They'd love a solutions that improves both emission and MPG, but it has to be proven, rigorously. AKA CARB sticker. In the gazillion possible combos for all the cars out there, how do they know an LT1 caprice with xxx is now better? Got to look at the whole picture.
I’m sorry, but it’s hard for me to accept as a justifiable reason that “THEY” don’t know if Marky did it right, and Stevey did it wrong as a reasonable or justifiable statement
Just like the Air Pump I have to leave hanging on my engine because the TSB says disable, not remove.
Well, only a moron would think it justifiable to require me to keep it there when it does nothing, never did, and never will do anything of real value emission wise.
But it was cheaper for GM to simply tell everyone to yank the relay out and be done with it, as opposed to doing a total recall to physically remove the air pumps from all the affected cars, and block off the exhaust manifold risers.
Is that the “THEY” you refer to ?
All the State and Federal emission Standards and Testing would have to do is change the test from the standard idle and 25mph speed tests to a complete rpm range test, if you pass, they shouldn’t give a damn what you’ve done to the car, or even have the right to tell me what I can and can’t do to said car.
If it passes leave me the hell alone.
If you honestly believe that the stock tuning technology and understanding of emissions equipment from 25 years ago, is still better and more comprehensive than something Marky or other accomplished tuners and engine builders can do...
I’ve got a horse and buggy I can sell you that has no air pollution emissions equipment at all that could possibly be modified....
Just watch out for the rear end emissions...
But that’s just my layman’s 2 cents worth.
Tune the things proper like Marky and others CAN do, use the proper logging capabilities when available, and they WILL run better and cleaner than they did 25 years ago.
Between unleaded fuels and catalytic converters, emissions aren’t that hard to make through with a well tuned engine.
 
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