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If KW was not such an idiot.......As for KW KMA!!! If you would exhibit at least half a brain when you post the output would greatly improve. :mad: :mad: .............The connection issues this site suffers from are not however, as much of a problem as are some of its dickhead posters that post on it. :mad:
cwm2 .....f^ck you, gary..... cwm2
 
How about my car running 11.5 at a +500 DA not a -1700 and doing so with street tires on front, full exhaust, bumpers, swaybars, AC, ABS, less stall, same gear but a taller tire for less effective gear. No ice, no trailer, true 93 octane pump gas. This is hotlapping not hour and a half cooldown.

The parts HAVE been tested on the same car people just doesn't like the outcome so they dismiss the result.
 
True!

Same engine/car......with a head only swap would be much more meaningful.

Still, whether on the track or on the dyno, environmental factors would have to be as similar as possible.
A more knowledgeable and experienced individual would realize it is much more than just "environmental factors" that is the issue.

EDIT: Didn't read Dwayne's post directly above this one before I posted this. I posted directly from email link to KW post.
Dwayne and I are on the same page in regards to the different variables one needs to be aware of.
 
Is that bottom flow graph a representation of the hteads before they were 'fixed'?

I notice the top graph flows a pretty close flow match.

Did these things make bad power?
One graph is intake, the other exhaust, both before.


It made a decent number on the dyno with ported intake but did not drive well, lowend was poor.

He went to AI heads and cam with as cast intake and picked up 24rwhp, 14tq, .2et 2mph and lowend traction problems. Needless to say he is happy.
 
One graph is intake, the other exhaust, both before.


It made a decent number on the dyno with ported intake but did not drive well, lowend was poor.

He went to AI heads and cam with as cast intake and picked up 24rwhp, 14tq, .2et 2mph and lowend traction problems. Needless to say he is happy.
Don't downplay the cam effect. ;)
 
The connection issues this site suffers from are not however, as much of a problem as are some of its dickhead posters that post on it. :mad:
There are no connection issues on ISSF. Most of us don't have any problems connecting here. Some of you do. Search the DNS issue post in MISC to resolve YOUR connection issue.

At least you admit you're one of the dickhead posters....
 
I don't think the jury is in on that yet, as Pat has only a few runs on his Ai set-up. If indded he winds up going 11.0's or so then I'd say there is a noticable difference because then the next fastest would be an LE set-up at 11.50.
Waaay to many variables for a meaninful comparo.
Apples and oranges to be exact! I love Pat like a brother, and hope he hits the 10's. But if it's solely due to the AI heads, then I'll kiss your ass in the county square, and give you an hour to draw a crowd! ;)
 
Oh I don't think they're so far apart: at least not apples and oranges apart. I wish you would have had more time to really tweak the set-up you had as that's what Pat will be doing. Just out of the box, I think the Ai stuff has a little advantage in that his runs have all been at 900 ft alt which kinda evens out any suggested advantage over cars running below sea level with DA numbers only dreamed about elsewhere :)
 
;)
Oh I don't think they're so far apart: at least not apples and oranges apart. I wish you would have had more time to really tweak the set-up you had as that's what Pat will be doing. Just out of the box, I think the Ai stuff has a little advantage in that his runs have all been at 900 ft alt which kinda evens out any suggested advantage over cars running below sea level with DA numbers only dreamed about elsewhere :)
Ah, you're probably right. Pat got lucky, found the right parts, and just look at him now. Or, could it be that AI got lucky? Boy, it's really hard to give a compliment, unless you give it to a vendor. ;)

It would have been fun to have someone like Pat pushing me, but I've moved on and I don't regret it. Having a really fast LT1 isn't as a big a deal anymore. But hey, perhaps you could talk Bill DeBlasio into putting a new top end and cam in the flambe. With nothing more than "the right parts" in his 396, then he'd probably be faster than you. :p
 
Compliment a Vendor

;)
Ah, you're probably right. Pat got lucky, found the right parts, and just look at him now. Or, could it be that AI got lucky? Boy, it's really hard to give a compliment, unless you give it to a vendor. ;)

It would have been fun to have someone like Pat pushing me, but I've moved on and I don't regret it. Having a really fast LT1 isn't as a big a deal anymore. But hey, perhaps you could talk Bill DeBlasio into putting a new top end and cam in the flambe. With nothing more than "the right parts" in his 396, then he'd probably be faster than you. :p

Pat's an engineer and believe me, picked his own parts from all those available to pick from. I have no reason to compliment any vendor but for my own personal experience with the quality of their product. I have to write the check like everyone else. :)

The outstanding factor regarding BK that folks tend to overlook is that he is not trying to be "fast". And if he ever decides going "fast" is more fun, everyone on this forum can look out: we're all in for alot of fun.

I'm still trying to figure out how to make my car as fast as yours :D (dream big I guess)
 
A more knowledgeable and experienced individual would realize it is much more than just "environmental factors" that is the issue........
I didn't state that "just" environmental factors were the issue.

But go ahead and argue for argument's sake, gary.

I understand......it's just your nature ;) .

KW
 
He went to AI heads and cam with as cast intake and picked up 24rwhp, 14tq, .2et 2mph and lowend traction problems. Needless to say he is happy.
I will comment more below but this leads me to a point I'm about to make. This guy went out and spent a couple of grand on a new H/C package to pick up .2 and 2 mph? I can't for the life of me rationalize that expenditure (and you guys KNOW I put the spend in exspenditure over the years!) :D

Apples and oranges to be exact! I love Pat like a brother, and hope he hits the 10's. But if it's solely due to the AI heads, then I'll kiss your ass in the county square, and give you an hour to draw a crowd! ;)
Glen if you need an excuse to put your lips on another mans buttocks, please call me tonight after 11pm. Thank you.
 
Glen if you need an excuse to put your lips on another mans buttocks, please call me tonight after 11pm. Thank you.
Hey Stumpy.........now THERE'S an offer you better take him up on. Harris is on a diet. But Kahuna?......hell, you could eat for a week....lol!
 
But hey, perhaps you could talk Bill DeBlasio into putting a new top end and cam in the flambe. With nothing more than "the right parts" in his 396, then he'd probably be faster than you. :p
LOL. Thanks Glen, at least SOMEONE gets it.

The outstanding factor regarding BK that folks tend to overlook is that he is not trying to be "fast". And if he ever decides going "fast" is more fun, everyone on this forum can look out: we're all in for alot of fun.

I'm still trying to figure out how to make my car as fast as yours :D (dream big I guess)
Thanks Mike (and Glen).

I guess I broke enough stuff back with my blower car that I just decided that I want to run and run a lot without pushing my LT1 to the ragged edge. Sort of what I am intending to do with my 502 and what Glen is doing with his BBC. We ain't pro's, we can't keep breaking our junk and spending our mortgage/kids college money on engines over and over. Been there, done that, never want to go back.

Not to digress but my current 396, with the best of the best Callies rotating stuff in the bottom end, was built before the advent of AI, LE, etc. It has a, to quote Pat Gish "goofy wide LSA" cam that was the 'rage' back in 2000 when my engine was built. It was set up for a 250 shot. The heads are what was considered state of the art in 2000.

Here are my specs of my H/C combo:

CNC ported LT1 heads that flow 262/196 at .500 and 271/216 at .600 lift. The cam is a custom Comp Cams grind: 224/229 at 114 LSA. Yeah I know, old school LSA. Awful for N/A. .528/.510 and the cam was installed at 110 intake center line.

At Cecil on 12/12/09, just a few months ago, I ran 12.37 and 12.39 NA at 109 and 110 mph at 4600 lbs with an autocross suspension and still managed to rip off a 1.64 60 ft time. I also tried to spray and had some minor issues but pulled off an 11.76 (see sig and look for it on YouTube) with a 1.56 60 ft time.

Lance, Matrix, and Alex (Impalexss) among others were running their AI and LE packages at about 12.0 and 12.1 side by side with me that day. Lance dropped his belt, his exhaust, etc, and ran 11.7 but in as best an apples-to-apples comparison as possible the AI/LE/ERE boys were about .2-.3 faster that day.

In the summer, when I slow down a LOT because of my combo tune for nitrous (yeah I'm lazy - one tune for all) the AI/LE Ellwein Engine boys beat me by about .3-.6 on any steamy July day. So they are running 12.3-12.5 and I am running 12.8-12.9.

I have come close a few times to pulling the trigger on an AI package just to see what it can do on this sick bottom end. However, I just can't justify spending $3,000 to go a half second quicker. At least not today. Of course I could change my mind tomorrow.

All I'm saying is my fat, flat launching, pretty boy car is not getting blown away by the new technology. While I would point any friend putting together a new combo towards AI/LE/Ellwein Engines I am saying my old technology and stout bottom end has held up for many passes, including nitrous shots, PLUS it's driven cross country and back to all the large events and races.

Sorry to digress the thread, my name got mentioned twice.

As for which is better, AI or LE...I think the results might SLIGHTLY lean towards AI because of my first hand experience racing side by side with these guys season after season...but again...I know enough when to STFU when the smart people are talking. I just absorb and try and learn as much as I can.

So for right now, I just can't justify the extra $3K to get .5 faster. Besides...I need to save my pennies to finish the damn 502...she's so close...
 
How about my car running 11.5 at a +500 DA not a -1700 and doing so with street tires on front, full exhaust, bumpers, swaybars, AC, ABS, less stall, same gear but a taller tire for less effective gear. No ice, no trailer, true 93 octane pump gas. This is hotlapping not hour and a half cooldown.

The parts HAVE been tested on the same car people just doesn't like the outcome so they dismiss the result.
A more knowledgeable and experienced individual would realize it is much more than just "environmental factors" that is the issue.

EDIT: Didn't read Dwayne's post directly above this one before I posted this. I posted directly from email link to KW post.
Dwayne and I are on the same page in regards to the different variables one needs to be aware of.
I missed this, and I think it's aimed at me. Perhaps you (either of you) could explain more of this 11.5 run, and help do an accurate comparo between the two samples. I could be wrong, and there may be more of a difference between the vendors with respect to certain aspects of a top end. Enlighten me.
 
Glen if you need an excuse to put your lips on another mans buttocks, please call me tonight after 11pm. Thank you.
Yea sure, just mark a spot, it wouldn't need to be a buttock! :p

Hey Stumpy.........now THERE'S an offer you better take him up on. Harris is on a diet. But Kahuna?......hell, you could eat for a week....lol!
A diet, he's already 160# soaking wet. :confused:

LOL. Thanks Glen, at least SOMEONE gets it.


Thanks Mike (and Glen).

I guess I broke enough stuff back with my blower car that I just decided that I want to run and run a lot without pushing my LT1 to the ragged edge. Sort of what I am intending to do with my 502 and what Glen is doing with his BBC. We ain't pro's, we can't keep breaking our junk and spending our mortgage/kids college money on engines over and over. Been there, done that, never want to go back.
So true, I rarely do the "ET at any cost" type of builds. My HC setup had heavy duty parts that cost me ET, and I never stripped it down as far as I could have. I got to 11.5 with it and had to make a decision on putting in a roll bar, and decided to go a different route. When I built that Caprice, it was still heavy and built with a BBC in mind. I don't have a problem spending money, but quality and reliability are a big priority.
 
I will comment more below but this leads me to a point I'm about to make. This guy went out and spent a couple of grand on a new H/C package to pick up .2 and 2 mph? I can't for the life of me rationalize that expenditure (and you guys KNOW I put the spend in exspenditure over the years!) :D


Glen if you need an excuse to put your lips on another mans buttocks, please call me tonight after 11pm. Thank you.


He replaced Lloyd's heads/intake/cam with AI's heads, cam and an as cast intake after he found a LOT of substantial problems with Lloyd's parts. It was a REPAIR. Point being he could have spent LESS and gone faster had he done it right the first time rather than the second.
 
I missed this, and I think it's aimed at me. Perhaps you (either of you) could explain more of this 11.5 run, and help do an accurate comparo between the two samples. I could be wrong, and there may be more of a difference between the vendors with respect to certain aspects of a top end. Enlighten me.
Which one, made multiple passes on multiple days. Did your's?

Let's start with details like full capped up exhaust to the bumper on the best 11.56 run, swaybars, bumpers, AC, ABS all completely intact. Caprice alloys on front wrapped in Kelley Safaris.

Cam is under 230degrees, same one Pat is using, and the same 200cc heads he has.

3800 Edge 4.10s, 28" ET Drags

With a 150mile drive EACH way I can't be pulling safety equipment like bumpers, and pulling stuff like exhaust is way too much work at the track.

Before you go any further with your accusations ask yourself what would Pat's car run if you left a few hundred pounds in it???

Right where my car runs.
 
LOL. Thanks Glen, at least SOMEONE gets it.


Thanks Mike (and Glen).

I guess I broke enough stuff back with my blower car that I just decided that I want to run and run a lot without pushing my LT1 to the ragged edge. Sort of what I am intending to do with my 502 and what Glen is doing with his BBC. We ain't pro's, we can't keep breaking our junk and spending our mortgage/kids college money on engines over and over. Been there, done that, never want to go back.

Not to digress but my current 396, with the best of the best Callies rotating stuff in the bottom end, was built before the advent of AI, LE, etc. It has a, to quote Pat Gish "goofy wide LSA" cam that was the 'rage' back in 2000 when my engine was built. It was set up for a 250 shot. The heads are what was considered state of the art in 2000.

Here are my specs of my H/C combo:

CNC ported LT1 heads that flow 262/196 at .500 and 271/216 at .600 lift. The cam is a custom Comp Cams grind: 224/229 at 114 LSA. Yeah I know, old school LSA. Awful for N/A. .528/.510 and the cam was installed at 110 intake center line.

At Cecil on 12/12/09, just a few months ago, I ran 12.37 and 12.39 NA at 109 and 110 mph at 4600 lbs with an autocross suspension and still managed to rip off a 1.64 60 ft time. I also tried to spray and had some minor issues but pulled off an 11.76 (see sig and look for it on YouTube) with a 1.56 60 ft time.

Lance, Matrix, and Alex (Impalexss) among others were running their AI and LE packages at about 12.0 and 12.1 side by side with me that day. Lance dropped his belt, his exhaust, etc, and ran 11.7 but in as best an apples-to-apples comparison as possible the AI/LE/ERE boys were about .2-.3 faster that day.

In the summer, when I slow down a LOT because of my combo tune for nitrous (yeah I'm lazy - one tune for all) the AI/LE Ellwein Engine boys beat me by about .3-.6 on any steamy July day. So they are running 12.3-12.5 and I am running 12.8-12.9.

I have come close a few times to pulling the trigger on an AI package just to see what it can do on this sick bottom end. However, I just can't justify spending $3,000 to go a half second quicker. At least not today. Of course I could change my mind tomorrow.

All I'm saying is my fat, flat launching, pretty boy car is not getting blown away by the new technology. While I would point any friend putting together a new combo towards AI/LE/Ellwein Engines I am saying my old technology and stout bottom end has held up for many passes, including nitrous shots, PLUS it's driven cross country and back to all the large events and races.

Sorry to digress the thread, my name got mentioned twice.

As for which is better, AI or LE...I think the results might SLIGHTLY lean towards AI because of my first hand experience racing side by side with these guys season after season...but again...I know enough when to STFU when the smart people are talking. I just absorb and try and learn as much as I can.

So for right now, I just can't justify the extra $3K to get .5 faster. Besides...I need to save my pennies to finish the damn 502...she's so close...
Instead of replacing the entire top end, why not look into just a new cam? One that generates the correct dynamic compression and has a good amount of overlap to keep the horsepower up higher in the rpm band.

As for the AI vs LE debate, I'm still of the opinion that Gary is a rat's ass.
 
I have ran LE2's and intake for several years now. Had to have them rebuilt after 3000 miles the first time (bent valves). Then an exhaust port cracked and got raw antifreeze out the passenger side exhaust. Had it fixed. Heads have been remilled down to 53cc chamber and got rid of the 918 beehives for patriot gold springs. Beehives floated the valves at about 6200 rpms and you could see where the valves hit the pistons in the corners of the valve reliefs. I could have bought 1 1/2 sets of AI heads cam and intake for what I have in just the LE2 heads. Do they work well? Yes but at what expense. So I am Installing an AI setup after many conversations with Mike, Pat, and Dewayne. Going with 200cc heads, cam, intake, and valve train package. Do I think the car will perform better? No doubt in my mind. Will it hold up better? ABSOLUTELY!!!. Not putting down LE just my personal experience. Also adding a 4 bolt spayed forged 385 ci bottom end to go along with the AI setup.
 
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