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Discussion Starter #1
-Recently purchased '96 FWB, non-abused 55K miles
-Appears already has a newer replacement stout (MOOG Troubleshooter type quality) Idler arm.
-Steering box-pitman arm both nice and rusty and do not appear ever touched.

I was under it replacing other pieces and noticed the pitman arm side bolt on the center link was cocked at an excessive angle to the arm. So, I figured it was wear and just got a new MOOG center link. I connected the pitman arm side first, and was unable to seat the idler arm side at all - I ended up having to undo one of the two frame bolts just to get the idler arm hole and center link stud seated. I left it loose-nutted at that point, and rather avoiding what will seem like excessive racking the idler arm back to reconnect that second frame bolt.

Question (after no luck with search): Has this popped up before? Are there similar idler arms and apps out there with small enough differences that a shop may have installed (forced on) the wrong one? I'm likely going to just buy an idler arm to rough compare it to what's installed.
 

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The FW idler arm may be different than the B-body arm. The FW Pittman arm is longer than the B-body Pittman arm. The inner tie rod pivots must be on the same plane as a line through the lower A arm pivot centerlines. If not, you will get bump steer.


It would be nice if there were some pictures of your issue.
 

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I replaced my idler arm passenger side when new since GM used a very poor quality part. got the moog idler arm and when installing it lined up perfectly and is still with no steering issues . OEM arm moved too much up/down new more than 1/8inch.

bolts all lined up as OEM . alignment did not change.

center link could be wrong what is the part number ?

pitman arm should be good unless abused .
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Apologize for small pics - Photobucket appears to be experiencing long-standing issues with upload.

Rockauto order for 'un-armoured' app
MOOG
DS1116Center Link$ 57.79$ 0.001$ 57.79
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I admit failing to check the box it came in for correct number before discarding it, but I've never had a mis-box or bad pick ordering from RA. You see I could have titled the thread 'Misaligned Pitman Arm Hole' if I had connected the Idler side first. Actually, when doing other work underneath I noticed the Pitman side had the centerlink rotated severely "down". I just thought it was wear, - the same way you can manually swivel a tie-rod or balljoint. And with 5X,XXX/20 years it needs replacing anyway. It wasn't until installing the new one I found the ends only rotate on one axis - no swivel.

Fred, Idler Arms on both my cars are the same ~6" c-c pivots. RA shows the same Part K6187T for both apps. On the Pitman arm lengths can you expand? I checked my SS and the Cady and both Pitmans are ~5 1/2" c-c pivots. CAR-ID shows the same Borgeson Part 177566483 for both apps.

For reference, the knuckle with both joints lined up and hand snugged is resting just shy of touching the sway bar. If forcing the idler back to install the second frame bolt you can see a severe bind. And finally, with the old centerlink (already discarded - damm!) on the car it drove perfectly fine. It's a headscratcher for sure.
 

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Just looked at mine. That idler arm looks wrong. Verify mounting "leg" isn't spun 180 degrees (if that's even possible) before returning it.
Never throw parts away until satisfied with an R&R in the future...
 

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with the parts made today you have to use the old parts to verify it is the proper part. also you said it was all working properly before you did all this ,so keeping the old parts would be good for back up... unless its brake pads and wear items I keep the parts .. .

sometimes buyer will return parts and the part returned is not good or the wrong part then the next guy gets screwed .

96 caddy fleetwood . missed that .impala uses different center link.
 

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I read where the idler arm for the FW is longer than the Caprice. I have not checked it myself. If the Pittman arm is the same, the idler arm should be the same as well. Other than the stabilizer shock attachment point, and if the Pittman arm and the idler arm are the same, the cross links should be the same.


My computer does not seem to like this site, and I can not pull up the pictures.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Thanks. There's nothing better than someone getting reamed for the very same thing they're always preaching about. In this case the foot is on the other hand (mine) :smiles:: I was just so glad to ditch all those old bars and shocks and other junk I'm swapping.

1slow-, thanks you made me look. I do believe that Idler arm is fubered. Remember it was already on the car - I only replaced the centerlink so far. I compared it to my SS and the mounting leg was installed with the same orientation (offset to inboard). However, the leg and arm are pretty much perpendicular on the SS which is clearly NOT the case with this one.
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Just ordered K6187T.

I read where the idler arm for the FW is longer than the Caprice. I have not checked it myself. If the Pittman arm is the same, the idler arm should be the same as well. Other than the stabilizer shock attachment point, and if the Pittman arm and the idler arm are the same, the cross links should be the same.


My computer does not seem to like this site, and I can not pull up the pictures.
Check, and check. For pics sometimes I have to use a different browser. That last one of the removed arm is sure strange comparing to the pic on RA (and the one on my SS).
 

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It still looks to me as if the leg with mounting holes needs rotated 180 degrees relative to the rest of the part.Though the top hole looks kinda funny.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
It still looks to me as if the leg with mounting holes needs rotated 180 degrees relative to the rest of the part.Though the top hole looks kinda funny.
I tried that, but it then put the knuckle hard into the sway bar before lining the bolt holes in the frame. On the off kilter hole I figured they must press the joint first then jig the holes last. It looks pretty wonky I admit, so maybe it was the $7.50 replacement part and not the $27 MOOG ;)

The arm is clearly bent and while I see nothing on the frame to indicate impact I wished I could have inspected the old centerlink too for damage. I'm banking on a new idler to be the fix.

Part of searching had a thread hinting not to crank down on the castellated nuts to seat the idler and Pitman tapers - use regular nuts first to torque, then the cotter key nuts after.
 

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My ACDelco professional is an exact copy of the OEM part. It literally measures out the exact same. Stop buying crappy frikin MOOG!!
 

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Might fit perfectly, doesn't change the fact that moog is known for crappy quality in recent times though. I wouldn't trust any of that crap on my car.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
 

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Thanks. There's nothing better than someone getting reamed for the very same thing they're always preaching about. In this case the foot is on the other hand (mine) :smiles:: I was just so glad to ditch all those old bars and shocks and other junk I'm swapping.

1slow-, thanks you made me look. I do believe that Idler arm is fubered. Remember it was already on the car - I only replaced the centerlink so far. I compared it to my SS and the mounting leg was installed with the same orientation (offset to inboard). However, the leg and arm are pretty much perpendicular on the SS which is clearly NOT the case with this one.
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Just ordered K6187T.



Check, and check. For pics sometimes I have to use a different browser. That last one of the removed arm is sure strange comparing to the pic on RA (and the one on my SS).
Something about the pic of that idler arm just doesn't look right. Maybe it's an optical illusion or maybe that's how the part is....but, it sure looks bent to me. If you look at the plane of the rod (with the 2 mount holes) and how it lines up with the joint, it just appears bent.

You may want to just run over to your local AZ our Advanced and ask them if you can compare that to what they have in stock. I also looked at some online pics which aren't always true representation of the part, but they do appear a little straighter than what u pic'd.
 

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Might fit perfectly, doesn't change the fact that moog is known for crappy quality in recent times though. I wouldn't trust any of that crap on my car.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
Sorry, don't agree at all.

I've used Moog parts for many years and never had a problem with quality. For those that don't want to spend killer prices for GM parts (which have also become less quality over the years), Moog and Proforged are the best replacement suspension parts you can get.
 

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Sorry, don't agree at all.

I've used Moog parts for many years and never had a problem with quality. For those that don't want to spend killer prices for GM parts (which have also become less quality over the years), Moog and Proforged are the best replacement suspension parts you can get.
I have used MOOG in the past none over the last several years . my understanding NOW is these are made in china so the quality is not the same. much of what is being made now is off shore crap but the same price . guy in china makes $1.60 USD / hour ..

the steel made in china is poor quality as well that includes tools like craftsman .. made in china but you will not see it stamped on the new wrenches as USA was ..
 

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I can't disagree with offshoring all products. I see it on acdelco products I buy. I see made in China, taiwan, and all that. But all that aside, the quality is just better. These really cheap Chinese parts have zero QC, and that's why they are so cheap, they literally make the part and throw it in a container. I'm sure ACDELCO requires some QC and better steels and what not.

There is no arguing, 'they don't make em that way anymore'.

My experience and many other experience with moog has been that their truck suspension parts are mediocre. Even when cared for meticulously. It's okay for the price but you are better springing for the more trustworthy part.

A set of moog ball joints for my truck, about 200 to 250. A set of carlis, 800. And those never wear out. 600 bucks to never have to worry about death wobble or having to do ball joints is well worth it. I feel the same way about all their parts.

But run what you brung, the earth will die some day no matter what you buy..

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I have used MOOG in the past none over the last several years . my understanding NOW is these are made in china so the quality is not the same. much of what is being made now is off shore crap but the same price . guy in china makes $1.60 USD / hour ..

the steel made in china is poor quality as well that includes tools like craftsman .. made in china but you will not see it stamped on the new wrenches as USA was ..
Unfortunately this is true for most manufacturers including GM or AC Delco. The "Made in America" is not what it used to be and even more confusing is the "assembled in America" which I believe is to somewhat fool the consumer iinto thinking they're buying American. Don't think our Global Economy and the cheap labor in other countries will ever Change that....regardless of what the Donald says.

This is a informative link on Moog Parts and where they are made or could have possibly been made. Actually it could be well over 10 different countries, not just China....

Where are Moog parts made? The answer may surprise you! - AftermarketSuspensionParts.com

The same can be true for GM sourced parts and this has been well documented recently with other GM parts such as water pumps and Opti's for example. Parts in General and even those made by the General, just aren't what they used to be. I would however put my trust in a part made by Moog, GM or Proforged OVER any of those other vendors out there based on my personal experience. I trust that at least those 3 have much better QA standards than the other cheapo brands regardless of where they are made.

In the end, I don't think we have a whole lot of say where our replacement parts come from. The best we can do is choose a brand that we know, have used and could hopefully still trust. When it comes to Suspension Parts and until I see otherwise, I will continue to trust in Moog.
 

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I feel like there might be a better chance that parts from other countries will be rejected when things are assembled in America. Im probably delusional, as usual, but I would hope that once things are here, they get a quick once over with a decent eye and are either sent forward or tossed aside.

Im sure MOOG in a light duty situation is fine, but I have a bad taste. Like Monica Lewinski. Its hard to change that I guess. Whatever. I have an entire ACDelco front end sitting my garage. Control arms, tie rods, center link, idler arm, bottom out stops, shocks and something else Im sure. Hopefully, that is worth the 600 bucks and the hours of work. I guess that will make for a good thread.
 

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The Moog "Problem Solver" Idler Arm has a history of being a quality replacement part for these platform vehicles for as long as...perhaps even the age of some current members.

Currently running the Pro-forged kit. Prior to that, the Problem Solver was a key suspension/steering upgrade from the stock part along with the various other suspension/steering mods.
 
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