[crm114]

Howdy. I just got my first B-Body two weeks ago. I'm looking to put the wood grain back on, so if anyone knows of a good, cheaper alternative to DI-NOC, let me know.
I have a set of gray Torq Thrust II's on the way and I'd like to add the factory cam and heads from a Vette if I can find a good deal. I know I'll be losing a lot of low end torque, but the previous owner put in .355 gears and shod it with 255/60-15's, so it's a bit like driving a diesel right now. I'd happily give up some low end for more horsepower up top. Most of my cars have revved to ~7K, so it's been an adjustment.
I ordered an ALDL cable and a Windows laptop to tune the PCM/correct for the axle and tires, but I haven't been able to get everything talking to each other yet.
I'm debating adding Wildwood's front calipers to the stock front setup, any opinions on those? I originally wanted to do a big brake kit, but those seem to be out of my price range.
She has the tow package, so I'm planning on losing the mechanical fan once I figure out the tuning and can set the electric fan to come on at a lower temp. I'd also like to add a second electric fan, especially if someone wants to sell one of those harnesses I keep reading about.
Thanks, Cam.

 

[Marky Dissod]

... I'd like to add the OE cam and heads from a Vette if I can find a good deal.
I know I'll be losing a lot of low end torque ...

You won't gain enough power from 5100RpM-5900RpM from OE 'vette / F-car heads and cam to be worth the swap -
even if the heads and cam are FREE.
Best invest in 1.6 self aligning ROLLER rockers, upgraded valvesprings and a cam, and better heads.
Also don't forget to upgrade the exhaust: headers, cat-back. OE exhaust is already a chokepoint NOW.

... previous owner put in .355

3.55? Seriously? How sure are you of 3.55? 22 years of the ISSF's experience has been 3.42 or 3.73.
3.55 would be ... news ...

... shod it with 255/60R15

I'm the nut that ONLY recommends 235/75R15, or 255/70R15 - otherwise, bigger wheels.
Every 15" tire size smaller than 235/75R15, pretty much SUCKS.

... I'd happily give up some low end for more horsepower up top.
Most of my cars have revved to ~7K, so it's been an adjustment.

As said, OE 1.5 non-roller rockers and 25+ year old valvesprings on OE heads from an F- or Y-car aren't worth the R&R labor to 'upgrade' from 5100RpM to 5900RpM.

For what a set of LT4 heads and cam costs today, it's easy to outdo anything GM has for ANY LT1.

... ordered an ALDL cable and a Windows laptop to tune the PCM / correct for the axle and tires, but I haven't been able to get everything talking to each other yet.

What sort of issues are you having?

I'm debating adding Wildwood's front calipers to the stock front setup, any opinions on those?
I originally wanted to do a big brake kit, but those seem to be out of my price range.

15" wheels limit your brake upgrade options.
9C1-JA1 (D614A police front brake upgrade) should be OE for ALL B- & D-cars.
Frankly, it's not enough of an upgrade, especially over 65MpH.
V4U-J55 will disable ABS, but it definitely improves fade resistance, especially over 65MpH.
The 'Astrafari' brake upgrade is initially labor-intensive, but worth it as well.
More serious / costly brake upgrades mostly require 17" or larger wheels.

... planning on losing the mech fan once I figure out the tuning and can set the electric fan to come on at a lower temp.
I'd also like to add a second electric fan, especially if someone wants to sell one of those harnesses I keep reading about.

Start a Private Message Conversation with 'Gary IW' and ask him about building you a primary electrical fan harness to add to your fan harness.
When you replace the primary mech fan with an electric fan, that electric fan becomes the primary.
The electrical fan you have now IS and will always be the 2ndary.
Confusing this when reprogramming the fans is counterproductive.
You may also want to ask him about relocating your fan relays OUTside the box for their protection.

 

[crm114]

Hi Marky, that's a lot of good advice. I really appreciate the in-depth response. I'll try to respond point by point:

My plan was to use a Corvette cam and heads only if they're dirt cheap and if I swap out the water pump and maybe the distributer (I forgot to mention that), so I'd be in there anyway. I'm definitely interested in LT4 cam/heads/intake, but the only stuff I've seen so far (I haven't been looking long) was nearly as expensive as just buying new Edelbrock stuff.

I certainly want to do headers, but they all seem to be pretty expensive for this car. If they're the single best upgrade though, maybe I'll just do those and hold off on other power upgrades for now. I have a preference for power upgrades that improve efficiency as well. The Clear Image headers look pretty appealing.

I would like to keep any expensive upgrades bolt-on/bolt-off, because this wagon isn't in great shape. I'm considering eventually buying a creampuff wagon (or maybe a Fleetwood) and transferring the good stuff over. The previous owner pulled the entire interior out of another car and put it in mine. While he did a pretty good job for a shade-tree mechanic, everything inside is kind of janky. I don't think that I could get this car to be nice enough that I would want to put $10k in upgrades into it without putting another $10K+ into the interior, body, and paint.

I'm not at all positive about the 3.55 gears, that's just what the previous owner told me. He might have meant that with the undersized tires it is the equivalent of 3.55 gears. He also told me that the ECU is out of a non-tow package car, so it thinks the car has 2.70 gears. The difference between the speedometer and GPS is that 75mph actual is an indicated 100ish. This error would line up much closer with 3.42 gears, 255/60r15 tires and a 2.70 ECU, so I'll assume that is what I have.

I'm inclined to agree with your tire advice. I tend to like more rubber. If I have to drive this car in the winter (I hope not, but my Accord has been in the body shop since February waiting for an airbag control module), I'm planning on getting 235/75r15 snow tires on the wheels that came with it. I've been thinking about 255/60r17s on my Torq Flights, because the tire options are so much better than Impala size. If I leave the torquey cam in there, then I'll definitely want to go with the bigger tires. That would make my 3.42 the equivalent of 3.34, which would give me a little more of the top end I'm looking for. Bigger tires would also be much better if I ever tow. I don't now if 29" tires that wide would would rub, but I'm sure someone on here knows for sure. The wheels I ordered are 17x8 with a +14mm offset.

I can't get the several ECU reading and tuning programs I've tried to read anything usable, so I'm guessing it's a driver issue with the USB cable from OBD Diagnostics. I haven't had a PC since the Windows XP days, so I need to get back up to speed. I bought a $90 used Lenovo laptop with Windows 10 Pro from Amazon.

As for the brakes, I did go with 17s so I can fit bigger brakes and to open up my tire options; but this is a budget build, so I don't want to spend $1,300+ on brakes. Are you saying that the Wildwood calipers aren't much of an upgrade? Or that the 9C1 brakes aren't?

I don't want to do anything that will disable the ABS. I spent many years delivering pizzas in downtown Minneapolis, learning to trust the ABS and just slam on the brake pedal when I needed to stop fast (which was a lot). I no longer trust my muscle memory to modulate brake pressure in an emergency.

I also don't really have the fabrication skills for anything but bolt-ons right now. We don't have any B-bodies in the junkyards up here and there isn't all that much 90's GM stuff left except full size trucks, so that really limits my affordable options. Because MN is so cold, we use a ton of road salt and 30 year old cars are generally so rusty that they get crushed.

That's great advice on the fans, thanks. I'm going to message him this week.

 

[Marky Dissod]

Edelbrock heads and cam are not worth your time or money compared to: Lloyd Elliot's PortWorks, AirFlow Research, or Advanced Induction.

Absolutely true that you should do headers and a full catback before heads&cam.

The 9C1 / D614A front brakes should have been OE on each and every single B- & D-car.
Even so, over 65MpH, they can fade a bit. Every time I did a panic stop from 100-0MpH, the fade was evident.

There are also other brake upgrades that will outperform Wilwood calipers for the money, especially with 17" wheels.
The OE undersized front rotors are the B- & D-cars' prime weakness, even with additional brake cooling.
No caliper upgrade can improve fade resistance due to undersized rotors.
You may want to get to know how B-car 3Channel ABS behaves on badly maintained roads.
Most of us have found it sacrifices more than a wee lil bit of stopping power to preserve steering ability.

Most of the ISSF prefers wider rubber. I prefer MORE. On 15" wheels, 235/75R15 or 255/70R15.
On 17" wheels, 255/60R17 or 275/55R17.

If you lift the rear axle off the ground and compare the number of times the driveshaft goes round to the number of times the tire goes round, that'll get you the axle ratio.

 

[crm114]

Looks like I have some research to do on brakes. I liked the Wilwood (spellcheck really wants a d in there) calipers mostly because I had heard of them. If I do have to drive this in winter, the current 15 inch wheels will get snow tires, so any upgrades will have to fit in there. If I can get my Honda back before then, I'll store the wagon for the off season and sell the 15s. In that case, I'll try to find something with bigger rotors that I can afford. If there a big brake kit out there in the $500 range, I'm all ears.

Based on your recommendation, I'm guessing I wouldn't get any rub with 275/55R17s? I hadn't even considered going that wide, but it seems like there are affordable options in that size.

Thanks for your advice Marky.

 

[Marky Dissod]

As I said, EVERY B- & D car came with undersized rotors.
Brake fade with 10 riders in a wagon? That's FEAR.
Want more rotor mass inside a 15" wheel, only choices are THICKER rotor meats.
I THINK that limits you to limo-spec (J55) rotors, or Astrafari rotors. If there be other options, not many.

255/50ZR17 (OE spec for SSes) is known for rubbing the inner wheel against the swaybar.
Schidt, every Caprice I ever owned rubbed a bit of wheel against some swaybar at full lock, with 235/70R15 (OE).
The clever solution I remember back then was to weld washers on the steering stops.
I just got better at almost but not quite turning the wheel all the way to the left.
If your springs are tall enough, 275/55R17 should not rub - unless you land, just after going airborne.
In that case, taller AND stiffer front springs, which won't hurt and will only help.

My wagon wore 255/65R15 for a few years. In the rear of every wagon:
1. There's an inner lip that needs rolling - upwards, if I remember correctly?
4 months of aggressive cornering wore the outer sidewall bulges to total anonymity.
Whether 275/55R17 or 255/60R17, it's a rear inner fender issue (unless, open rear wheel arches?).

2. No clue how to get a 255mm wide tire into the spare area - not without sucking air OUT of it.
That's what made me live with 235/75R15 all around, not the wagon's rear inner arches.
In which case, you might get stuck with 255/60R17, or 235/65R17 if daily driving is required.

 

[buickman1]

My wagon wore 255/65R15 for a few years. In the rear of every wagon:
1. There's an inner lip that needs rolling - upwards, if I remember correctly?
4 months of aggressive cornering wore the outer sidewall bulges to total anonymity.
Whether 275/55R17 or 255/60R17, it's a rear inner fender issue (unless, open rear wheel arches?).

I have 255/50/17's on my wagon now, and just noticed the tire edge is worn down to the cords on the PS rear. I checked the DS and have enough clearance to stick my hand more than 1/2 way up, so I think I'm going to have to shift the body to even out the gaps, before I put new tires on.

 

[Marky Dissod]

... think I'm going to have to shift the body to even out the gaps, before I put new tires on.

Wouldn't shifting the body on the frame would be more labor intensive than altering the offending lip inside the wheel well?

 

[buickman1]

Wouldn't shifting the body on the frame would be more labor intensive than altering the offending lip inside the wheel well?

Yes, but there is a big difference in the gap from side to side.

 

[crm114]

n which case, you might get stuck with 255/60R17

I'll probably run 255/60r17 then. There are pretty good tire options in that size.

I have 255/50/17's on my wagon now, and just noticed the tire edge is worn down to the cords on the PS rear. I checked the DS and have enough clearance to stick my hand more than 1/2 way up, so I think I'm going to have to shift the body to even out the gaps, before I put new tires on.

I appreciate that the asymmetry is probably responsible, but out of curiosity, what offset are your wheels?

 

[buickman1]

Not sure off hand, I'm positive someone knows, they are stock Impala rims, so they shouldn't be much different, if any, over stock 15" rims.

 

[crm114]

Not sure off hand, I'm positive someone knows, they are stock Impala rims, so they shouldn't be much different, if any, over stock 15" rims.

Good to know thanks. I believe those are the same as I have on order: 17x8, 14mm offset/5.05 inch backspacing.

 

[crm114]

Good to know thanks. I believe those are the same as I have on order: 17x8, 14mm offset/5.05 inch backspacing.

I suppose I could have just looked at your profile photo...

 

[buickman1]

That would have been to easy, but you never know if that's how it looks now.

 

[crm114]

She’s coming along.

 

[crm114]

You won't gain enough power from 5100RpM-5900RpM from OE 'vette / F-car heads and cam to be worth the swap -
even if the heads and cam are FREE.
Best invest in 1.6 self aligning ROLLER rockers, upgraded valvesprings and a cam, and better heads.
Also don't forget to upgrade the exhaust: headers, cat-back. OE exhaust is already a chokepoint NOW.3.55? Seriously? How sure are you of 3.55? 22 years of the ISSF's experience has been 3.42 or 3.73.
3.55 would be ... news ...
I'm the nut that ONLY recommends 235/75R15, or 255/70R15 - otherwise, bigger wheels.
Every 15" tire size smaller than 235/75R15, pretty much SUCKS.As said, OE 1.5 non-roller rockers and 25+ year old valvesprings on OE heads from an F- or Y-car aren't worth the R&R labor to 'upgrade' from 5100RpM to 5900RpM.

For what a set of LT4 heads and cam costs today, it's easy to outdo anything GM has for ANY LT1.What sort of issues are you having?15" wheels limit your brake upgrade options.
9C1-JA1 (D614A police front brake upgrade) should be OE for ALL B- & D-cars.
Frankly, it's not enough of an upgrade, especially over 65MpH.
V4U-J55 will disable ABS, but it definitely improves fade resistance, especially over 65MpH.
The 'Astrafari' brake upgrade is initially labor-intensive, but worth it as well.
More serious / costly brake upgrades mostly require 17" or larger wheels.Start a Private Message Conversation with 'Gary IW' and ask him about building you a primary electrical fan harness to add to your fan harness.
When you replace the primary mech fan with an electric fan, that electric fan becomes the primary.
The electrical fan you have now IS and will always be the 2ndary.
Confusing this when reprogramming the fans is counterproductive.
You may also want to ask him about relocating your fan relays OUTside the box for their protection.

Hi Marky, would something like this work? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00062Z8X...olid=1FR9U8GHP3WL7&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
Would I need new springs/pushrods/etc, or could I just bolt them on?
What rockers would you recommend? Any parts that could later be bolted onto aluminum heads would be ideal. I really want to eventually get aluminum heads, even if real-world benefits wouldn't necessarily be that great.

 

[Marky Dissod]

1.6 Comp Cams Ultra Pro Magnum Roller Rockers are what I'd recommend.
There are a few details that you should check, however, especially if you plan on taking them off of one set of heads and installing them on another, such as self-aligning vs NON self-aligning, 3/8" vs 7/16".
There are people more knowledgeable / experienced about them than I am; ask them.

Unless you are trying to impress yourself, someone else, or competing against a stopwatch, I personally don't see the point in fetishizing aluminium heads - unless they have been ported.
OE iron heads flow more than well enough, that with proper 1.6 roller rockers and a talented pcm tuner, they should make anyone happy unless fractions of a second are critically important.

 

[Sinister]

If you find those roller rockers in stock someplace let me know. Hard to find LT1 parts in stock right now. Delivery dates from Summit keep going farther and farther away. Headed towards March currently and I’ve been watching since October.

 

[crm114]

1.6 Comp Cams Ultra Pro Magnum Roller Rockers are what I'd recommend.
There are a few details that you should check, however, especially if you plan on taking them off of one set of heads and installing them on another, such as self-aligning vs NON self-aligning, 3/8" vs 7/16".
There are people more knowledgeable / experienced about them than I am; ask them.

Unless you are trying to impress yourself, someone else, or competing against a stopwatch, I personally don't see the point in fetishizing aluminium heads - unless they have been ported.
OE iron heads flow more than well enough, that with proper 1.6 roller rockers and a talented pcm tuner, they should make anyone happy unless fractions of a second are critically important.

Thanks, I'll try looking for those. As for the fetishization of aluminum heads; it's not an entirely rational one, I just really love aluminum heads.

 

[shakenfake]

Unless you are trying to impress yourself, someone else, or competing against a stopwatch, I personally don't see the point in fetishizing aluminium heads

Every time I lift an iron head and then do an aluminum I say "Ah I love aluminum heads"