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Springtime for Hitler (the Mel Brooks version)

Civilization through out all history has always made back up copies of peak civilization. The Dark Ages were not dark everywhere. Today I can confirm that Switzerland is near perfect (and dignified and elegant). I've found New Zealand, Scotland, Australia and Saint Barts are each nice in their own way. What would you tell a hypothetical guy named Horowitz living in Germany anytime between 1932 and 1939?
 

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.........Your Founding Fathers wrote a Constitution that reflected their understanding of this and so limited voting to the less than 20% of the population that had demonstrated their wisdom by accumulating enough wealth to be committed to enlightened self interest. (Which embraces income inequality and judgemental thinking) Over time this insight was undermined, as was the nation.
Our founding fathers limited voting to men who were able to lay claim to land that they did not purchase , inherited land that their father(s) didn't purchase, and to men who owned slaves.

In my opinion, it's a good thing that some of their 'values' were undermined.

KW
 

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Our founding fathers limited voting to men who were able to lay claim to land that they did not purchase , inherited land that their father(s) didn't purchase, and to men who owned slaves.



In my opinion, it's a good thing that some of their 'values' were undermined.



KW

To your point KW, do you believe that people who put nothing in should have the right to vote to take something out, simply because they may outnumber those who actually made a contribution?

Even communism in it's purest form requires each member of society to contribute something...

I know there are justified exceptions. People who have genuine disabilities who can't survive by themselves, through no fault of their own. These are not the people I'm referring too.

Regarding inheritance, do you think it's reasonable to pass what you own to your children, or do you think it should go to the state?
 

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To your point KW, do you believe that people who put nothing in should have the right to vote to take something out, simply because they may outnumber those who actually made a contribution.......
Where did you see that as being my point? What does this 'question' have to do with anything I just posted?

.....Regarding inheritance, do you think it's reasonable to pass what you own to your children, or do you think it should go to the state?
What does this have to do with what I just posted?

Or.....are you just coming up with these out of left field?

KW
 

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Where did you see that as being my point? What does this 'question' have to do with anything I just posted?







What does this have to do with what I just posted?



Or.....are you just coming up with these out of left field?



KW

You imply that no person that had the right to vote at that time did anything to deserve it.

Who should have the right to vote and who should not is EXACTLY what was being discussed.

"Our founding fathers limited voting to men who were able to lay claim to land that they DID NOT PURCHASE , INHERITED land that their father(s) DIDN'T PURCHASE , and to men who owned slaves."


"In my opinion, it's a good thing that some of their 'values' were undermined."

Point is, somehow a society needs to establish who has and who does not have the right to vote. We don't let felons vote for example, although that might be changing soon.

Right or wrong, that is a criteria.

Should there be ANY requirement to have the right to vote, in your opinion?

Are there things in your opinion that should cause a person to lose the right to vote?

What's the use having a conversation if you sidestep questions that you find uncomfortable?
 

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"He who pays the piper calls the tune"

Your Founding Fathers were savvy guys because multi generational family wealth allowed them to get a firm grounding in History, no matter how the family got it. They learned that 2400 years ago the Greeks were already warning that Democracy in all it's forms was suicidal. A few hundred years later a very sharp Roman (Juvenal) clarified the point by illuminating that MOST people would always vote themselves "Bread and Circuses" if allowed to vote, which would be political suicide but they would do it anyway. Your Founders realized if you let people vote to spend other people's money, disaster followed. People love to spend other peoples money. Pre the income tax 100 years ago, land owners mostly funded the U S Treasury, and the "Makers" (those who produced something of value) were the few who created wealth (raw material and intelligence being primary for creation. Working allows one to get and hold wealth, but not create it) Limiting the franchise was a brilliant way to keep people from being able to spend other peoples money.
In terms of wealth, the issue of slavery is a red herring because the slavery of the past and the "Wage Slaves" of the present both create wealth only for a few equally well. Slavery was the compassionate alternative to human sacrifice, at least so said the propaganda of the Political and Religious Establishments. Lies. It was just more profitable. By the 1700's the propaganda of the Political and Religious Establishment worldwide started calling for the compassionate alternative to slavery:free men who would be wage slaves. Lies. Political Correctness language but really "It's just more profitable" in the long run to not have to defend the institution of slavery. The fact is "life isn't fair". A few people really get how to get rich; most people don't. Politicians tell lies to seduce the "not rich" into supporting institutions like the current U S Republican and Democratic parties. Both exploit the poor and middle class to the benefit of the rich. Niccolo Machiavelli many hundreds of years ago pointed out that any complex conspiracy could be understood easily by asking just one question..."que bono" which means "who benefits". Both political parties took turns over the last 250 years lying to the people about "who benefits" so the voting laws changed but, a recent example" ...the U S had no immigration from 1922 until 1965 so that the previous immigrants could assimilate, learn English and adopt American values. Lying politicians of both parties saw an opportunity. For Rep... cheap labor, more workers to keep wages low. For Dem. ..a permanent underclass dependent on Dem. wealth transfer payments. All presented as compassion by the Political and Religious Establishment, a triumph of Universal Suffrage. Lies.
 

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well your wrong on that no immigration in the US from 1922-1965. during the late 1950's my cousin became a citizen . I also know of others that also were allowed to immigrate after WWII. many after that war did become us citizens from all over the world.

yes the US did spend IMO too much of our tax dollars like to re-build Europe and Japan after WWII.

yes we are all corporate slaves [those that work] ... too much government IMO this is the problem as it kills small businesses. corporations have lobbyists to create loop holes so they continue total control of the system. problem is , now its becoming worldwide problem for the little guy.

the system in Europe in the past was the lords/rulers were the owners of all the land. you were the slaves of these rulers they took anything they wanted including your children,wife,crops,etc.

so when the Europeans came to the Americas nothing changed they took everything from the peoples living there and killed them to take it all.

the world has had and still does have slaves . they are of every race .

time is now to get out and vote . get the corrupt pols out of office . no special deals any more for the corporations .
 

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That turns out not to be the case

The Immigration Act of 1924, or Johnson–Reed Act, including the National Origins Act, and Asian Exclusion Act (Pub.L. 68–139, 43 Stat. 153, enacted May 26, 1924), was a United States federal law that limited the annual number of immigrants who could be admitted from any country to 2% of the number of people from that country who were already living in the United States in 1890, down from the cap set by the Immigration Restriction Act of 1921, according to the Census of 1890. It superseded the 1921 Emergency Quota Act. The law was primarily aimed at further restricting immigration of Southern Europeans and Eastern Europeans. In addition, it severely restricted the immigration of Africans and outright banned the immigration of Arabs and Asians. According to the U.S. Department of State Office of the Historian the purpose of the act was "to preserve the ideal of American homogeneity". But though the Act aimed at preserving American racial homogeneity, it set no limits on immigration from Latin American countries. Congressional opposition was minimal. You can quibble about my using "No" immigration, but the change was so drastic that the demographics of the country was altered massively and the cultural effect was as well.
 

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Also

You say..."time is now to get out and vote . get the corrupt pols out of office . no special deals any more for the corporations ."

Which political party is not utterly corrupt? Not telling lies constantly and shamelessly indifferent to the harm they do to American citizens? Ask any vet who was in Iraq? Since WWII I see no political party devoted to the well being of American citizens. The elites live large. Everyone else is lied to, exploited and only seen as potential victims of the latest wealth transfer schemes that keep elites laughing while reciting their mantra (PC version).."Life is an excrement sandwich. The more bread you have,the less excrement you have to eat."

Consider a hypothetical fellow named Horowitz living in Germany 1932-1939. Would You say to him..."time is now to get out and vote . get the corrupt pols out of office..." You may not think it's gotten that bad, so how bad is it now and after your next election?
 

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You say..."time is now to get out and vote . get the corrupt pols out of office . no special deals any more for the corporations ."

Which political party is not utterly corrupt? Not telling lies constantly and shamelessly indifferent to the harm they do to American citizens? Ask any vet who was in Iraq? Since WWII I see no political party devoted to the well being of American citizens. The elites live large. Everyone else is lied to, exploited and only seen as potential victims of the latest wealth transfer schemes that keep elites laughing while reciting their mantra (PC version).."Life is an excrement sandwich. The more bread you have,the less excrement you have to eat."

Consider a hypothetical fellow named Horowitz living in Germany 1932-1939. Would You say to him..."time is now to get out and vote . get the corrupt pols out of office..." You may not think it's gotten that bad, so how bad is it now and after your next election?
I agree with everything you've said. At the moment, voting is all we have. I'm sure that a tipping point where people would actually revolt exists, but no telling how bad things would have to get.
 

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This is not a "do as I do''

You say..."I agree with everything you've said. At the moment, voting is all we have. I'm sure that a tipping point where people would actually revolt exists, but no telling how bad things would have to get."

I'm not focused on revolution: I paid attention when "The Who" sang "Won't Get Fooled Again"

A few posts back I wrote "Civilization through out all history has always made back up copies of peak civilization. The Dark Ages were not dark everywhere. Today I can confirm that Switzerland is near perfect (and dignified and elegant). I've found New Zealand, Scotland, Australia and Saint Barts are each nice in their own way."
The point about hypothetical Horowitz was ...Hitler was elected, Democracy in action and the camps were soon built, other bad things happened too. Personally I found emigrating vastly superior to voting. I'd guess you've been voting a while. How's that worked out for you so far?
 

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the US has spent too much in the past to keep the crazy dictators under control , the taxes here keep rising and the regulations continue to kill the small business owners and also small financial institutions. voting out the corrupt pols will help . esp the ones that have been in office way too long. the repubicrats are both corrupt its a rigged system. the supreme court did not help with how campaign funds can be had. corporations control the election.so your vote is for the lesser of 2 evils.

Trump in the election is a very strange change since he is not approved by the corporations . this is why the republican party elites have decided to put out a no vote for him. he is no republican he took over the party or what I should say is the people who in the past never voted came out in mass to get him on the ballot. the reason he did not run on the Obama party is because the delegates are a rigged system so that is why Bernie lost so badly.

with the huge US debit , the US has to stop wasting our tax dollars and the lives of our troops on wasteful wars/police actions . I would have no problem if Europe EU started to pull their own weight and act like responsible countries to keep the law and order in the EU area of the world.

I did like how the EU took in hundreds of thousands of these displaced people that is a good thing but how are the Europeans going to accept them I doubt that's gonna happen.

The brits did the smart move the people said bye bye EU ... they do not want some German or French official to tell them how they should live .. In the US I doubt it will ever happen in 1000 yrs we become part of a world wide political party ..thank god the president is only a few months away from the end of his dictatorship and his racial/religious attacks on good hard working US citizens .

I do hope that things will get better next January no matter who wins ... Obama has a bad attitude very bad . this then causes congressional grid lock not good.

I did VOTE for for him twice . I was worried he would go off the racial cliff he did ! now we have a lot of dead people in the streets. its on him ...
 

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You say..."I agree with everything you've said. At the moment, voting is all we have. I'm sure that a tipping point where people would actually revolt exists, but no telling how bad things would have to get."



I'm not focused on revolution: I paid attention when "The Who" sang "Won't Get Fooled Again"



A few posts back I wrote "Civilization through out all history has always made back up copies of peak civilization. The Dark Ages were not dark everywhere. Today I can confirm that Switzerland is near perfect (and dignified and elegant). I've found New Zealand, Scotland, Australia and Saint Barts are each nice in their own way."

The point about hypothetical Horowitz was ...Hitler was elected, Democracy in action and the camps were soon built, other bad things happened too. Personally I found emigrating vastly superior to voting. I'd guess you've been voting a while. How's that worked out for you so far?
Immigrate to WHERE Scot? Each of the countries you mentioned, to my limited knowledge have limited immigration policies. I don't know anything about Saint Bart's, but Australia, New Zealand, Scotland and definitely Switzerland all look like beautiful places, although I haven't personally visited any of them.

I really like it just where I am. My children are here, I have two businesses that are growing slowly, but I'm not in a financial position to sell it all and start over, or retire. :)

Have you ever read "100 Years of Solitude"? Although I don't agree with Garcia Marquez politically, I thought it was a very interesting story. The forces that destroyed Macondo are never far away, no matter where you are.

In fact, they're right at our door, and yours.

http://www.economist.com/news/europ...ight-switzerland-scarcely-touched-europes-new

Hmmmm.... "Protective Nationalism"... Sounds Familiar! I like that, and I truly hope it works for you.
 

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Emigration

"I really like it just where I am. My children are here, I have two businesses that are growing slowly, but I'm not in a financial position to sell it all and start over, or retire."
Please realize that my "Hypothetical Horowitz" said those same words everyday right up until he got to Buchenwal. This is not an insult, just a fact about human nature.

I was fortunate to read 100 Years of Solitude simultaneous with Atlas Shrugged. Magical delusion countered by enlightened self interest. It is worth noting that "100 years..." early on has a metaphor of sinful error in the first of many marriages between first cousins. Today it is known that such a union, just once, lowers the IQ of the child 6-12 points compared to the mean IQ of both parents. Do it for 700 generations, as some populations have, and we here at Political Instability observe the highly unPC fact of very low mean IQ in those populations. We coined the terms "Fragile State" and "Failed State" in 1994. Evolution in Action. You can Google The Political Instability Task Force for reams of factual, objective data.


I considered all the places I mentioned while I established dual citizenship here in Switzerland in 1994. I chose Zurich and brought my career and P.I. here that year. Why? In the spring of that same year I spent a work related 17 days in Rwanda while the locals murdered 900,000 fellow citizens in 90 days. Tribalism at work. The event convinced me to locate to a place consistent with my values (instead of trying to get others to adopt my values). The U.S. had already descended into decadence and Sado-Masochism (the inevitable outcome of every Progressive inclination through all of known history. I did not relinquish my U.S. citizenship completely until 7 years ago, losing my military pension, Social Security and Medicare; all a tiny price to pay IMHO. Yes I was required to go before a three judge panel to demonstrate my fitness culturally for Swiss citizenship. Emigration can be hard but i say it's worth it.
Allow me to illuminate about "protective Nationalism". As male citizens we must all complete Swiss military training. ALL of us. My course included demonstrating proficiency with the HK model 221 battle rifle (7.6 mm full machine gun) and Sig sidearm. On completion, all are required to take these weapons home with a fixed amount of ammo. Protective Nationalism is not for everybody. I saw no hope that the U.S. would be so inclined in 2008, nor do I now.
You wrote... "The forces that destroyed Macondo are never far away, no matter where you are.

In fact, they're right at our door, and yours."

I'm acting on this insight. Are you?
 

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j cat wrote: "I do hope that things will get better next January no matter who wins ... Obama has a bad attitude very bad ...
I did VOTE for for him twice ."

Time out for a "Die Hard" aside..." Sorry Hans, wrong guess!"

"I do hope that things will get better next January no matter who wins ..."

We here call this baseless optimism. Or "The triumph of hope over experience".
I do not share your optimism, nor have I since the 90's, hence my new nation.
As to your next election...

Nothing happens in movies that doesn't happen in life. Arch villains bent on world domination have been the staple in films since films started, books before that too and before them, oral history. The Clinton Organized Crime Family was revealed as corrupt evil doers by the 1990's but they championed the vile Progressive Neo-religion decadence and when given a chance the majority of people will vote themselves the "Bread and Circus's" paid for with other peoples money, so vile as they were,they flourished.
We were confused as how Mrs. Clinton could be Ernst Stavro Blofeld until we were given the Bruce Jenner papers.
Being as now only Trump (who we were told was really a liberal Democrat. Very confusing) or Clinton will be your next president... does the Hitler all so democratic, at least he's not a slave owner, election come to mind?
"We are in the presence of ultimate evil and ultimate sadism" has always been the reality of humanity. This is reality, this is fact. Don Vito Corleone advised his son Michael, channeling Machiavelli, "Put not your faith in Princes, never play the hero but see to yourself and your self interest" translated from the Italian as "Cultivate Indifference".
Said another way...The filth of the world need not concern you when you control your own self, mind first, body next and finally admit that "Life is the people YOU love" (not who love you). Give them any and only the kindness they earn.
All others, "Treat them as the blades of grass and the wild beasts." Everything else is of as little consequence as sparrows tears.
Those last four sentences was the advice Aristotle gave to his young student who later became known as Alexander the Great. 2400 hundred years ago. Your Founding Fathers (so unfairly disparaged in a previous post) knew that bit of history too. Sad that their wisdom died on the alter of political correctness taught in public schools to heap guilt on innocent children. Blame Jefferson for that too.
 

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I'm acting on this insight. Are you?
Your post deserves a more thoughtful reply, but I'm short on time today, so…


Yes, but not to the extent that I could or should.

I don't live in a big city, and I'm well equiped to fend off the zombies as long as there aren't too many of them at once. If the government got involved, I would be toast, with everyone else I know.

I have a feeling our challenges here will be from within.
 

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You imply that no person that had the right to vote at that time did anything to deserve it......
See? That's an example of how people read without really thinking.

Scot stated:
.....Your Founding Fathers wrote a Constitution that reflected their understanding of this and so limited voting to the less than 20% of the population that had demonstrated their wisdom by accumulating enough wealth to be committed to enlightened self interest. (Which embraces income inequality and judgemental thinking) Over time this insight was undermined, as was the nation.
My point.....plain and simple.....was that 'our founding fathers' had an incomplete concept of democracy; that they LIMITED voting rights to those who were most like themselves simply as a method to ensuring they keep governing authority in their 'circle', and that by the fact that they were all (mostly, anyway) slavers, there was further evidence of they're flawed morality/wisdom.

How you come to question me about 'who puts something in versus who gets something out', or about inheritance taxes escapes me (SMH).

.....Should there be ANY requirement to have the right to vote, in your opinion?......
Of course. EVERY......SINGLE......ADULT......CITIZEN. Otherwise, it's just another 'founding father' lie to say that our government is "of the people, BY the people...."!

.....Are there things in your opinion that should cause a person to lose the right to vote?
No.

.....What's the use having a conversation if you sidestep questions that you find uncomfortable?
I sidestep red herring questions that have nothing to do with points I've made or positions I've taken.

Like.....In this case.....silly inheritance tax questions.

KW
 

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My point.....plain and simple.....was that 'our founding fathers' had an incomplete concept of democracy...


KW

I disagree. I think our founding fathers understood democracy perfectly. That's why they never intended for this country to be a democracy, and in fact, went to great effort to avoid it.

http://www.americantraditions.org/Articles/Why Our Founders Feared a Democracy.htm

You state that our founding fathers limited the vote to keep power in the hands of people "like themselves". If by that you mean that they wanted to keep power in the hands of those with "skin in the game" I would agree.

But that's not what you mean, is it?

AT&T pays a dividend every three months.

You know what? I don't get a check.

You know why? Because I don't own the stock.

You might be thinking that we're not talking about a company, we're talking about a country. That's true.

I would reply that a company who paid dividends to everyone regardless of whether they owned stock in it wouldn't be around for long. The company would eventually run out of money.

The same applies to a country. Of course a country, unlike a company, has taxing authority. They have the ability to take money from one person and give it to another.

When the amount of money the country collects isn't enough to spread around, because more people want it, the county has another option. Raise taxes.

The inevitable result of this is that the country eventually runs out of money. It just takes longer.

Our forefathers were intelligent enough to understand the eventual result of "mob rule".

You stated that my comments regarding who put in vs who takes out, estate taxes, etc. were "out of left field" and not related to the conversation. I think they go to the root of it.

I've only touched on the fiscal aspects of mob rule. That's because numbers are easier to see and measure.

There are many other destructive aspects of mob rule... social, ethical, moral... I could go on, but I have to go to (pay taxes) work now.

So here we are...

ImageUploadedByAutoGuide1471698106.989368.jpg
 

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Equality..."The Religion of Peace"

KW wrote "My point.....plain and simple.....was that 'our founding fathers' had an incomplete concept of democracy; that they LIMITED voting rights to those who were most like themselves simply as a method to ensuring they keep governing authority in their 'circle', and that by the fact that they were all (mostly, anyway) slavers, there was further evidence of they're flawed morality/wisdom."

At Colonial Williamsburg in Virginia preservation of the social context of your Founding Fathers is available even today. What you'll find there, slave huts and all, is evidence your F F's had not an "incomplete concept of democracy" but great wisdom from extensive study of why every democracy in all of history self destructed. Yes their fathers might have won life's lottery or been money grubbing bad guys, but we don't automatically place the sins of the father on the son, right? Those sons wanted America to avoid the grim fate of history's lesson. Maybe those sons got a first rate intro to Wisdom? The Modern Progressives promote the F F image of selfish, evil slavers. Why? Because they have invented a new fantasy( you could call it a religion, small r) where "All Men are Created Equal" is matured into "Equality for All". So the FF are disparaged and standards of competency are immediately labeled racist, sexist and evil. Which is very odd given these same big government loving people insist on standards for everything from hair dressers, to driving and brain surgery...but not the power constrain how trillions of dollars are spent? Very funny religion.
BTW The French Revolution just a few years later based on the Progressive fantasy produced The Reign of Terror and soon after The White Terror and soon the arrogant midget dictator. FF 1...Progressives 0. I also was privileged for 17 long days to witness first hand in 1994 another Progressive fantasy implosion: Rwanda's 900,000 homicides in 90 days. Not a revolution, invasion or Dictator induced genocide (don't believe the Progressive propaganda) but just folks murdering their friends, patients, students, fellow members of the congregation when "Equality" ran it's inevitable course and the folks realized everyone was not equal.
So today's Progressives tell lies to seduce unsuspecting Americans into a (so shows history) fatal fantasy. As a now objective alien, not a citizen with an agenda, I contend your FF were making the best of all possible choices at the time. Had a similar wise hand guided the changes over the last couple hundred years your country would be far better off.
 

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WOW we're on page 1040! How ironic is THAT?

Couldn't help but notice...
 
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