[GoremanX]

This is totally serious. There's been musings about this on this forum in the past, and I remember reading about at least one frame swap that was done. I've got 3 (4?) B-body wagons in my driveway, most in reasonable shape. I'd love to convert one of them to AWD or 4WD to use as a winter warrior. So what would be viable options to achieve that goal?

Things I've considered:

- find an Astro/Safari AWD subframe and weld it in place of the front section of the B-body frame

- find a pickup/SUV frame with a similar wheelbase and re-body it

- buy a Dodge Magnum instead

The first option seems like it would retain a reasonable ride height, whereas the second one seems like it would require a significant lift. I would prefer to retain a stock-ish ride height with stock-sized wheels and tires, even if there's a change in wheel stud circle diameter involved.

The 3rd option is boring, but probably the most cost-effective.

Are there any other options I'm not thinking of?

 

[Triple BBB Body]

Like these?

Wagon 4x4 Pictures

Don't know if any of you have ever seen anything like this. First for me and I have been looking a while! LOL This was created by a member of another message board I belong to for the Limo Industry. This guy also builds his own Limos. Guys is Froms Windsor Ontario Canada, explains alot so...

www.impalassforum.com

 

[GoremanX]

Yeah... but not really. I'm not looking for the lifted look. I'm looking more for the factory look

 

[shakenfake]

It would require some welding





and by some I mean a lot

 

[GoremanX]

well, yeah... I did say "weld a subframe in place of the front section of the B-body frame"

 

[shakenfake]

I know just makin a joke

 

[Marky Dissod]

Yeah ... but not really. I'm not looking for the lifted look. I'm looking more for the factory look.

In all the time I've been reading the ISSF, never seen a non-lifted 4x4 B- or D-body.
Don't think there's enough room under our floorpans to fit a 4x4 transfer case in a way that would look 'non-lifted'.
You might have to run the front wheel driveshafts through the oil pan?
You might have to convert our frames to allow for torsion bar front springs?

 

[Caddylack]

At this point I've probably spent as much time on this as anyone. I'm beyond serious, and I don't see myself giving up.

Here is what I can tell you:

• The biggest obstacle, by far, is the engine cradle or cross member. It is most practical to just cut it out entirely at the frame rails, but I haven't given up hope that it might be possible to just cut/modify the bottom portion somehow. Ride height would need to be increased (big silly wheels would work).
• The Astro AWD front track width is way too wide, so the Astro sub-frame could only be used with significant modification, which may not be worth it compared to other options
• The simplest way to pull this off, by far, is to cut the frame rails somewhere near the A-pillar on your car and also on a GMT360 (Trailblazer, Envoy, Rainier, Ascender, 97x)... It would be pretty "basic" metal work for someone in that field, but definitely a big undertaking for the average Joe. The GMT360 front cross member is up front near the radiator support, which is perfect for this application. Swapping the entire frame is not an option, as the frame rails on the GMT360 get way too narrow rear of the A-pillar.
• Another decent option would be to cut out the entire B cross-member and fab 4 single-bolt mounts that allow you to bolt up a sub-frame from an Audi. All of the Audis use ZF transmissions that are generally solid and easy to find in junkyards. You could use an Audi engine or use a bell housing adapter to bolt up an LS/LT. Keep in mind that the Audi and Subaru AWD systems are unique in that they position the engine ahead of the front axles, with the axles coming basically directly out of the sides of the transmission. The biggest obstacle I see here is that the B steering setup would need to go, but I don't see this being too big of a deal. With the engine moved forward, there will be plenty of space for a steering rack in the Audi location (between the engine and the firewall).
• If you have really deep pockets, you could go this route: Homepage - Protean

In conclusion, this is absolutely 100% possible. The only reason it hasn't been done is that none of the people interested in doing it have the combination of time, motivation, skill, and money that it takes to pull it off.

 

[Caddylack]

In all the time I've been reading the ISSF, never seen a non-lifted 4x4 B- or D-body.
Don't think there's enough room under our floorpans to fit a 4x4 transfer case in a way that would look 'non-lifted'.
You might have to run the front wheel driveshafts through the oil pan?
You might have to convert our frames to allow for torsion bar front springs?

I don't think the transfer case is much of an issue, even if it means banging on the floor a little bit.

Routing the axles through the oil pan may be helpful, and that's how the GMT360 does it.

The springs are a total non-issue once you convert to coil-overs or struts.

 

[GoremanX]

@Caddylack
Huh... I've got Audi quattro subframes, transmissions and engines in every corner of my shop. Now you've got me pondering a TDI/quattro B-body wagon 🤣

edit: of course getting the diff ratios to match up would likely be impossible

 

[shakenfake]

MMM TDI b-body wagonnnnnn

 

[Caddylack]

@Caddylack
Huh... I've got Audi quattro subframes, transmissions and engines in every corner of my shop. Now you've got me pondering a TDI/quattro B-body wagon 🤣

edit: of course getting the diff ratios to match up would likely be impossible

The gear ratios would be the least of my concerns. There are many Audi diffs with different ratios to choose from. My C5 2.7T with manual trans has factory 4.11 gears, which is pretty darn close to 4.10.

 

[GoremanX]

Actually I have an 01E here with a 4.11 final drive (37/9). There's a 37/9 gearset available for GM 8.5" rear ends

 

[GoremanX]

Just for fun, I ran some numbers of an 01E 6-speed with 4.11 final drive that I have here using standard 28" tires in a B-body wagon:

1st gear would essentially be a granny with 15.4:1 multiplication. Excellent for mild off-roading or plowing through deep snow.

2nd gear would be extremely normal for accelerating from a dead stop with 8.4:1 multiplication.

6th gear would cruise at [email protected] (which is basically what my home-built allroad TDI currently cruises at)

So that all sounds pretty darn sweet... I wonder if I can make that work somehow. I even have a spare TDI wire harness and ECU.

 

[toonwarrior]

Been some time since I watched but this guy had a g body setup for AWD with a bunch of stuff put together from a TBSS, bravada etc.

 

[GoremanX]

That's really cool, and it looks clean, too

 

[stonebreaker]

You guys need to subscribe to Grassroots Motorsports. They have lots of articles on their website covering stuff like this.

 

[Caddylack]

Brian King's car is sweet, and also an example of just how simple this is for someone who works with metal. He literally just cut the frame rails below the A-pillar and patched in the front of a Bravada. No real engineering involved.

 

[Caddylack]

Just thought I would add that one of the biggest gripes about Audi is that placing the engine ahead of the axles makes the car very front-heavy. In a wagon or Fleetwood, the rear is probably heavy enough to balance it out nicely, by comparison.

 

[GoremanX]

You still gotta get all the other components to fit, though. Fenders, bumper, radiator support, etc, etc...