As far as the engine placement with a TDI audi, the entire powertrain weighs only 420 or so pounds, including fully assembled engine and 6 speed transmission. Even with the engine being ahead of the axle, that's still a puny amount of weight compared to an iron small block and 4L60[E].
Options to AWD/4WD a B-Body Wagon
This is totally serious. There's been musings about this on this forum in the past, and I remember reading about at least one frame swap that was done. I've got 3 (4?) B-body wagons in my driveway, most in reasonable shape. I'd love to convert one of them to AWD or 4WD to use as a winter warrior. So what would be viable options to achieve that goal?
Things I've considered:
- find an Astro/Safari AWD subframe and weld it in place of the front section of the B-body frame
- find a pickup/SUV frame with a similar wheelbase and re-body it
- buy a Dodge Magnum instead
The first option seems like it would retain a reasonable ride height, whereas the second one seems like it would require a significant lift. I would prefer to retain a stock-ish ride height with stock-sized wheels and tires, even if there's a change in wheel stud circle diameter involved.
The 3rd option is boring, but probably the most cost-effective.
Are there any other options I'm not thinking of?
Things I've considered:
- find an Astro/Safari AWD subframe and weld it in place of the front section of the B-body frame
- find a pickup/SUV frame with a similar wheelbase and re-body it
- buy a Dodge Magnum instead
The first option seems like it would retain a reasonable ride height, whereas the second one seems like it would require a significant lift. I would prefer to retain a stock-ish ride height with stock-sized wheels and tires, even if there's a change in wheel stud circle diameter involved.
The 3rd option is boring, but probably the most cost-effective.
Are there any other options I'm not thinking of?
21 - 40 of 96 Posts
How would you get the Audi computer to talk to the GM computer?
Don't need to. A TDI can live all on its own with its ECU and wire harness, especially with a manual transmission. All one would need to do is turn the speedometer pulse at the transmission into something the dash can interpret. Translators are easy to make for that.How would you get the Audi computer to talk to the GM computer?
The ECU in my '91 OCC and '93 RMW don't do much of anything except run ther respective engines. They don't even run the transmissions, those old 4L60 boxes are fully manual with the exception of TCC lockup
Are you talking about putting the complete Audi drivetrain in the car? That would simplify things...
As far as the powertrain functioning, yes. But I 'd still need holes in the crossmember to accommodate the front axle shafts, proper uprights with a splined hub and the same steering geometry, relocated coil springs and shocks, and about 2" more space in front of the front axle to fit the engine
It's way cheaper and easier to cut out the cross member and install the entire Audi front end. Why bother patching all that stuff together?As far as the powertrain functioning, yes. But I 'd still need holes in the crossmember to accommodate the front axle shafts, proper uprights with a splined hub and the same steering geometry, relocated coil springs and shocks, and about 2" more space in front of the front axle to fit the engine
And, yes, Audi power trains are very good at running entirely independent from the car they are in.
Don't even bother messing with relocating shocks and coil springs. Just use Audi struts (or even GM struts from a Trailblazer or Silverado).
It should be fairly straight forward to fab individual control arms that mount to the Fleetwood frame and the Audi spindle. (Or, fab mounts allowing you to use some or all of the Audi arms).
Why would there be any issue with fenders/body? There's plenty of space in there, especially on a Fleetwood.
Why would there be any issue with fenders/body? There's plenty of space in there, especially on a Fleetwood.
For those who aren't familiar with Audi, I just figured I should add:
The older Audis, like my 2000, use a 100% mechanical AWD system, with a Torsen center diff. There is zero computer involvement to worry about, and it would integrate seamlessly with a solid rear axle.
The front end has 8 control arms and 8 ball joints (instead of A-arms, just think straight links with individual ball joints on the end). The ball joints bolt to the knuckle side-by-side. The two lower control arms bolt to the sub-frame, and the two uppers bolt to the strut towers, which are part of the unibody.
In our application, you would have to fabricate these strut towers. OR, the original B upper may work, if you were going to use a GM knuckle instead of an Audi knuckle. GM uses a fairly universal bolt pattern for hubs, so you would be able to easily choose your bolt pattern this way (including sticking with 5x5).
The Audi sub-frame, and everything attached to it, bolt to the unibody with 4 large bolts and regular-ass rubber bushing mounts.
The older Audis, like my 2000, use a 100% mechanical AWD system, with a Torsen center diff. There is zero computer involvement to worry about, and it would integrate seamlessly with a solid rear axle.
The front end has 8 control arms and 8 ball joints (instead of A-arms, just think straight links with individual ball joints on the end). The ball joints bolt to the knuckle side-by-side. The two lower control arms bolt to the sub-frame, and the two uppers bolt to the strut towers, which are part of the unibody.
In our application, you would have to fabricate these strut towers. OR, the original B upper may work, if you were going to use a GM knuckle instead of an Audi knuckle. GM uses a fairly universal bolt pattern for hubs, so you would be able to easily choose your bolt pattern this way (including sticking with 5x5).
The Audi sub-frame, and everything attached to it, bolt to the unibody with 4 large bolts and regular-ass rubber bushing mounts.
Can anyone confirm that the Suburban and the wagon use the same frame? Sure would simplify things if it did.
They absolutely do not.Can anyone confirm that the Suburban and the wagon use the same frame? Sure would simplify things if it did.
Can anyone confirm that the Suburban and the B-wagon use the same frame? Sure would simplify things if it did.
To expand on this statement:They absolutely do not.
IF one were crazy enough to consider such commonality, the better candidates would be Tahoes: '00-'06 (GMT821), '07-'14 (GMT921), or '15-'20 (GMTK2UC)
Reason why is because their wheelbases are all 116.0".
B-wagon frames' wheelbases are all 115.9".
That said, the rear axle hump is an issue to contend with ...
I've refinished a suburban frame from scratch before. There's zero similarity there. Especially under the body.
The only similarity is that they are both frames.I've refinished a suburban frame from scratch before. There's zero similarity there. Especially under the body.
BTW @GoremanX I realized you were likely referring to the inner fenders. Sometimes I forget about them because my car still doesn't have any. Or an engine, for that matter.
🤣 It's easy to forget what cars are made of
Hopes, dreams, money, lots of research, and some metal. At least, that’s what most of mine are.
Well, in this case, it's more that I forgot to address potential self-imposed limitations.🤣 It's easy to forget what cars are made of
AWD means enough to me that I am willing to ditch my inner fenders, cross member, core support, etc. They are afterthoughts for me.
Those of you who are trying to make this happen within your own mental construct will have more to sort out.
Could always build a tubular frame will AWD provisions built in 
Sure. This is like looking at a road map and mapping out different routes. There are a lot of different ways to get from point A to point B, and the practicality of them will vary from person to person based on individual skill set and resources.
21 - 40 of 96 Posts
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