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1995 V4P Fleetwood
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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
As far as I know, the Fleetwood line is not any different from the Roadmaster line that also has the thing sticking off the back of the pump.

The Roadmaster came equipped both ways from the factory.
Yes, seems to be that way per the article below...

Paging @96 Black

Has anyone ever tried to install the Caprice/Impala SS lines on their Fleetwood and changed to an Impala SS pump like this article?




It seems like I'll need to replace both the high and low pressure lines along with the pump. Can I leave the OEM gearbox in there with the Impala lines and later change to a quicker gearbox?


MANY thanks!
 

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1995 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham
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Yes, seems to be that way per the article below...

Paging @96 Black

Has anyone ever tried to install the Caprice/Impala SS lines on their Fleetwood and changed to an Impala SS pump like this article?




It seems like I'll need to replace both the high and low pressure lines along with the pump. Can I leave the OEM gearbox in there with the Impala lines and later change to a quicker gearbox?


MANY thanks!
I had VM7 on my 95 Roadmaster wagon. When I replaced the pump and lines, I used the non-VM7 stuff (Impala, etc.). I'm about to do the same thing to my 95 Fleetwood.

You can change the gearbox whenever you want. Now or later.
 
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1995 V4P Fleetwood
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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
I had VM7 on my 95 Roadmaster wagon. When I replaced the pump and lines, I used the non-VM7 stuff (Impala, etc.). I'm about to do the same thing to my 95 Fleetwood.

You can change the gearbox whenever you want. Now or later.
You are the man.

Did you have to use different bolts like that article said? All the lines and everything else for the Impala bolts up/hooks up just fine with the lines, etc?


Gearbox change will require an alignment since everything has to come off (Pittman arms)?
 

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You are the man.

Did you have to use different bolts like that article said? All the lines and everything else for the Impala bolts up/hooks up just fine with the lines, etc?


Gearbox change will require an alignment since everything has to come off (Pittman arms)?
The issue with the bolts is perplexing. I did not encounter this problem.

Why not just throw a couple of washers in there? The author of that article is talking about grinding the bolts down, but thar seems silly, unless there is a clearance issue with the bolt heads.

The pitman arm is attached to the gearbox, so it will need to be transferred over to the new box. You should generally get an alignment any time you replace any part of your steering system.
 

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I don't see how any of the steering linkage ,and/or geometry has changed to warrant an alignment.. Unless it already needed one.
 

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1995 V4P Fleetwood
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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
The issue with the bolts is perplexing. I did not encounter this problem.

Why not just throw a couple of washers in there? The author of that article is talking about grinding the bolts down, but thar seems silly, unless there is a clearance issue with the bolt heads.

The pitman arm is attached to the gearbox, so it will need to be transferred over to the new box. You should generally get an alignment any time you replace any part of your steering system.
Unsure! Just reading what they said :D Washers would make sense...

Did you change your gearbox too for the quicker ratio? People really seem to love this.


Necessary on your Roadie or the Fleetwood???
 

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Unsure! Just reading what they said :D Washers would make sense...

Did you change your gearbox too for the quicker ratio? People really seem to love this.


Necessary on your Roadie or the Fleetwood???
The wagon had the factory steering box. I put a new quick ratio box in the Fleetwood, but I haven't driven it yet.

If you want tighter cornering, then do it.
 

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1995 V4P Fleetwood
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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Any downsides with light steering on the highway on a car that's not tightly sprung?

My springs are FE2 (tow package) so they're a bit stiffer than the FE1, soft spring.


Wish there was a way to make the suspension squishier over bumps yet still handle well.... Impossible?
 

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Any downsides with light steering on the highway on a car that's not tightly sprung?

My springs are FE2 (tow package) so they're a bit stiffer than the FE1, soft spring.


Wish there was a way to make the suspension squishier over bumps yet still handle well.... Impossible?
The springs wouldn't affect my choice of steering box.

When I first got my 95 Fleetwood, it had Bilsteins in the front and factory air shocks in the rear. I never got to drive it with that setup, but I think the previous owner was going for exactly what you're talking about. Float like a Caddy over bumps, AND corner tight.

If that's the goal, I would say this:

You want the car to be nice and tight and responsive up front, where steering occurs. There are obviously many options as far as springs and shocks. The better the better. In the rear, you want some variety of air suspension.

Definitely go big on front and rear sway bars, since they will improve cornering without affecting softness over bumps.

Not impossible.
 
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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
The springs wouldn't affect my choice of steering box.

When I first got my 95 Fleetwood, it had Bilsteins in the front and factory air shocks in the rear. I never got to drive it with that setup, but I think the previous owner was going for exactly what you're talking about. Float like a Caddy over bumps, AND corner tight.

If that's the goal, I would say this:

You want the car to be nice and tight and responsive up front, where steering occurs. There are obviously many options as far as springs and shocks. The better the better. In the rear, you want some variety of air suspension.

Definitely go big on front and rear sway bars, since they will improve cornering without affecting softness over bumps.

Not impossible.
So you would not remove the air compressor and various accoutrements? Saw somebody else do this to shed some LBS. Rear of the car could have non-air and just squishy, yes? Won't that feel weird in the car? Stiffer stuff in the front will make the car feel stiffer, but the rear balances out? Way above my pay grade on the physics behind that :)

Interesting.... Doing a 50/50 mix on the suspension won't harm anything in regards to float or handling?

What sway bar options do we have? I need to soak my rear sway bar bolts in some anti-rust like Evaporust because they are a mess....
 

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So you would not remove the air compressor and various accoutrements? Saw somebody else do this to shed some LBS. Rear of the car could have non-air and just squishy, yes? Won't that feel weird in the car? Stiffer stuff in the front will make the car feel stiffer, but the rear balances out? Way above my pay grade on the physics behind that :)

Interesting.... Doing a 50/50 mix on the suspension won't harm anything in regards to float or handling?

What sway bar options do we have? I need to soak my rear sway bar bolts in some anti-rust like Evaporust because they are a mess....
I would keep the air shocks if you like the way a Caddy floats. You also have the option of using air bags in your springs, or using air bags in place of springs. If you want to know more about different air options, send a PM to Fix Until Broke.

The car will definitely handle "weird" in the sense that it will handle differently than most, but there will absolutely not be any harm done.

As far as sway bars, I would recommend BMR. You can also go to sites like Summit and Jegs and punch in 1996 Impala. They carry numerous sway bars.
 
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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
Thanks, will look into it!


The sway bars don't affect ride quality, just keep body roll down and better handling?

They have this crazy thing for the rear which I think looks different than mine??? Any ideas?



And then they have fronts as well Not sure the difference:




Do they come with the correct bolts and mounting hardware? Doesn't list this on the page.
 

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Thanks, will look into it!


The sway bars don't affect ride quality, just keep body roll down and better handling?

They have this crazy thing for the rear which I think looks different than mine??? Any ideas?



And then they have fronts as well Not sure the difference:




Do they come with the correct bolts and mounting hardware? Doesn't list this on the page.
The BMR rear looks different than yours because it's more badass.

They make two different front sway bars for our cars, and you can use either one. The technical difference between them isn't relevant in your situation, so just pick the one you think looks cooler. The links you posted are the correct parts.

The BMR bars do come with the bushings and mounting hardware.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
Something is wrong with your system. Power Steering pumps are very simple inside. The behavior you mention sounds like the high pressure line is constricted.

Having both a roadmaster and an Impala at my house right now, the line in the back is ninety degrees different between the variable assist and non-variable-assist, so a "slight bend" is like saying I "slightly totaled" my car. How do you know the line is flowing properly? Did you measure it or did the shop measure it?

I'd say replace that line with a proper one FIRST. Then go from there.
Sherlock, I wanted to touch base again on this. Isn't it the case that many classic car owners make custom power steering lines and bend them in all sorts of crazy fashions with no ills effects?

So the bend itself isn't necessarily the issue, it's that the shop that bent it, probably caused a restriction within the line (that's not visible to the outside).


Based on what you're saying, there is 0% chance we have a gearbox issue. The pumps that have been installed have all been garbage (in my opinion) and the line probably doesn't help. The system is a very simple one. I've been told the tensioner is working correctly and the serpentine belt is brand new.

So based on that, it's almost guaranteed it's the line somehow.... Correct?


Thanks for humoring me!!

The BMR rear looks different than yours because it's more badass.

They make two different front sway bars for our cars, and you can use either one. The technical difference between them isn't relevant in your situation, so just pick the one you think looks cooler. The links you posted are the correct parts.

The BMR bars do come with the bushings and mounting hardware.
Haha well you're sure it'll fit? Badass is good :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·

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Gents,
first post long story...
So, what I heard you say in your first post is:
  1. Shop removed the electronic control solenoid from rear of power steering pump.
  2. Shop modified the existing line to fit a regular outlet.
  3. Symptoms:
    1. Pumps whining
    2. Car bogs at low speed.
    3. Steering is very difficult in parking lots
    4. Car will sometimes bog at start up when goosing the throttle and turning the wheel as you leave a driveway or parking spot
  4. Multiple power steering pumps have been tried, same symptoms.
I suggested that it's highly likely that the "modified line" is causing a flow restriction. Since a new (and correct) line is cheap and not terrible to replace, I'd replace that first. I did not give a next step after that.

Sherlock, I wanted to touch base again on this. Isn't it the case that many classic car owners make custom power steering lines and bend them in all sorts of crazy fashions with no ills effects?

So the bend itself isn't necessarily the issue, it's that the shop that bent it, probably caused a restriction within the line (that's not visible to the outside).

Based on what you're saying, there is 0% chance we have a gearbox issue. The pumps that have been installed have all been garbage (in my opinion) and the line probably doesn't help. The system is a very simple one. I've been told the tensioner is working correctly and the serpentine belt is brand new.

So based on that, it's almost guaranteed it's the line somehow.... Correct?
Yes, it is the case that custom hydraulic lines can be made. Every time there is a bend, there the potential for a kink. There is right and a wrong way to bend hydraulic line; at this point pipe bending is well understood.

It is very possible that the additional bend added by the shop caused a restriction. 95wagon asked you to flow-test the line; I suggested that you should replace the line because it was cheap and relatively quick, therefore a good first step. Have you done either of those steps yet?

By suggesting the line first, I was starting with the cheapest / easiest / most obvious potential cause. The next cause would be the steering box itself. The steering box is both more expensive to replace, and more complex than a power steering pump with more variable quality among rebuilders. But since you hadn't yet replaced the line, I hadn't yet recommended a next step.

I also refuse to believe you have had four bad power steering pumps in a row. I personally have rebuilt 6 power steering pumps. 5 of the 6 worked perfectly; only one would not build pressure and I never did figure out why. A parts store rebuild pump was later installed to replace it and it worked instantly. Again, they are a simple part.
 

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So are these all the parts I need?
Not sure about the D body but there is a pressure switch port on the high pressure line. It is for increasing idle when the power steering pump needs more RPM.
200015


If the Fleetwood has the switch somewhere else plug it. The Roadmaster variable steering system does not show this switch so I think all LT1 PCMs handle the power steering high idle request switch .If your car does not have this switch working it will be harder to turn the wheel when you are not rolling.
Don't think I have a cooler, so I would get the first one, correct?
The "cooler" is just the extra steel line. You have to decide if a Caprice specific part will fit. The Gates 360940 (non cooler return) is listed for all B&D bodies.
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
So, what I heard you say in your first post is:
  1. Shop removed the electronic control solenoid from rear of power steering pump.
  2. Shop modified the existing line to fit a regular outlet.
  3. Symptoms:
    1. Pumps whining
    2. Car bogs at low speed.
    3. Steering is very difficult in parking lots
    4. Car will sometimes bog at start up when goosing the throttle and turning the wheel as you leave a driveway or parking spot
  4. Multiple power steering pumps have been tried, same symptoms.
I suggested that it's highly likely that the "modified line" is causing a flow restriction. Since a new (and correct) line is cheap and not terrible to replace, I'd replace that first. I did not give a next step after that.


Yes, it is the case that custom hydraulic lines can be made. Every time there is a bend, there the potential for a kink. There is right and a wrong way to bend hydraulic line; at this point pipe bending is well understood.

It is very possible that the additional bend added by the shop caused a restriction. 95wagon asked you to flow-test the line; I suggested that you should replace the line because it was cheap and relatively quick, therefore a good first step. Have you done either of those steps yet?

By suggesting the line first, I was starting with the cheapest / easiest / most obvious potential cause. The next cause would be the steering box itself. The steering box is both more expensive to replace, and more complex than a power steering pump with more variable quality among rebuilders. But since you hadn't yet replaced the line, I hadn't yet recommended a next step.

I also refuse to believe you have had four bad power steering pumps in a row. I personally have rebuilt 6 power steering pumps. 5 of the 6 worked perfectly; only one would not build pressure and I never did figure out why. A parts store rebuild pump was later installed to replace it and it worked instantly. Again, they are a simple part.
Thanks for the long and good reply.


I don't mean to make this long in the tooth just trying to make my mark and strike and do it all at once.

1-4 are all correct, yes!

The problem is that since the electric solenoid has been removed, the OEM line no longer works in the OEM pump (minus the EVO). So the Caprice/Impala line will probably not work, either since the Fleetwood and Caprice have different locations for hookups. I can't just replace the Fleetwood line since I no longer have the EVO. I am stuck in this middle ground.


*At this point, my only way out (I see) is to replace the high and low pressure lines with Caprice ones and install a Caprice/Impala pump. That way we know that all the lines and fittings and pump are 100% OEM. Anything other than that is a half measure. * Am I wrong here?

I have not flow tested the line as the one shop that was supposed to do it failed to do so among other emergency repairs (leaking coolant hose).



I spoke to Lee Power steering about the gearbox and they think there is VERY little chance the gearbox is the problem. They agree with what you're saying about either the pump or the line.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 · (Edited)
Not sure about the D body but there is a pressure switch port on the high pressure line. It is for increasing idle when the power steering pump needs more RPM.
View attachment 200015

If the Fleetwood has the switch somewhere else plug it. The Roadmaster variable steering system does not show this switch so I think all LT1 PCMs handle the power steering high idle request switch .If your car does not have this switch working it will be harder to turn the wheel when you are not rolling.

The "cooler" is just the extra steel line. You have to decide if a Caprice specific part will fit. The Gates 360940 (non cooler return) is listed for all B&D bodies.

Based on the article I posted above, the Roadmaster and Fleetwood used the VP7 (variable assist) and everything from Impala/Caprice should go in like legos for non-variable system.

The provided plug will block off that port from what I can tell.


Is that Part # you posted an aftermarket solution for the EVO or is it completely different? Fleetwood is not listed as one of the cars it fits.


Before all of the system started failing (when the EVO was working), steering was light all the time, even when stopped.

The electronic system (EVO) failed and we've been chasing a fix ever since.



At this point I don't see how I have any option but to go completely Caprice with lines, pump, everything
 

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Is that Part # you posted an aftermarket solution for the EVO
I think all LT1 PCMs handle the power steering high idle request switch .
Pin 26 of the black connector of the PCM( of a B body). Not part of the EVO system. Check a Fleetwood FSM to see if you have one.

It works just like the A/C request. The PCM increases RPM to counteract the load at idle.
 
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