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Discussion Starter #1
Sometimes I'm a real idiot. I ordered the Racetronix kit a couple weeks ago, dropped the tank last night and pulled out the pump assembly and set about tearing it down and began installing the racetronix parts. Didn't take me long to discover that the Fleetwood is different from the other B-bodies (imagine that). The Fleetwood uses 4 wires in its harness both in and out of the tank, while the B-bodies only use 3. There's the 12v for the pump, the purple wire for the fuel gauge and a common ground for the pump and sending unit, but on the Fleetwood GM in all of their infinite wisdom decided to separate the grounds for the pump and sending unit thus resulting in the 4-wire setup.

Between google and this forum I've come across a few other people who ran into the same problem, but I haven't found any confirmed solutions yet. Has anyone ever actually conquered this? Obviously I could just use the combined B-body/Racetronix grounds and modify their out of tank harness with a 4-pin weather pack connector so that it'll connect to the Fleetwood harness. But GM had to have had a reason for separating the grounds, right? Or I could track down some other little odds and ends and fully mod the harness to recreate the original 4-wire setup. Or I could maybe contact Racetronix and see if I can talk them into making a Fleetwood specific in-tank and outside harness.

Upon searching into this I vaguely recalled having read this stuff a couple years ago when I first started planning out my upgrades, but apparently I forgot about this. I love my Fleetwood, but sometimes I really freaking hate it.
 

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Not a Fleetwood guy, but Ground is Ground. Couldn't the 2 Grounds just be spliced together and combined into 1 ground? Without a schematic, that is what I'm "thinking" but maybe someone else could provide some details.
 

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I solder my fuel pumps in, so I never have an issue with wiring.
 

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Seems To Be Recurring Item

You're welcome to pour over these for insights:
http://www.impalassforum.com/vBulletin/34-engine-problems-maintenance/1296897-take-look-fuel-pump.html
http://www.impalassforum.com/vBulletin/36-fleetwood/1212145-anyone-install-racetronix-pump-harness-kit.html

I did not use Racetronix, but used Spectra and Airtex for pump, harness and sender. I had heard before the 4th wire is connected with FW's different sender, but can't find it confirmed in print. In any case all my parts plugged together fine.

I've heard on posts RT is not so communicative at times, but until you get reply confirmation of what's up, as long as you bought parts listed specifically by them for a FW then I expect they think the "splicing grounds" approach will work.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
You're welcome to pour over these for insights:
http://www.impalassforum.com/vBulletin/34-engine-problems-maintenance/1296897-take-look-fuel-pump.html
http://www.impalassforum.com/vBulletin/36-fleetwood/1212145-anyone-install-racetronix-pump-harness-kit.html

I did not use Racetronix, but used Spectra and Airtex for pump, harness and sender. I had heard before the 4th wire is connected with FW's different sender, but can't find it confirmed in print. In any case all my parts plugged together fine.

I've heard on posts RT is not so communicative at times, but until you get reply confirmation of what's up, as long as you bought parts listed specifically by them for a FW then I expect they think the "splicing grounds" approach will work.
First off, there is no Fleetwood specific kit from them and I never made any mention of it. I was under the impression it would be a straight install and go in like on the B-body. That was my fault, should have looked into it a little more carefully before I ordered. I may have still ordered it, but would have had my ducks all lined up ahead instead of having to leave the Caddy in the driveway up on jack stands for a good week while I figure this out.

As for just combining the grounds, it seems like it would work? But I haven't found any definitive answer why GM did it, best I can figure (and this comes from a comment on either one of the threads I found or one of the ones you mentioned) that it could be due to the Cadillac having a digital fuel gauge, so perhaps they isolated the circuit for some reason because of it being digital? Again, not sure, but I think I've nearly got it all sorted out, I just need to order some stuff. Since I have this all laid out on my bench anyways, I'll probably take pics of the mods I make to the Racetronix harness so anyone can do it on their Fleetwood in the future. The in tank is easy to fix, the parts stores all sell replacement in-tank harness that are just all the individual wires and the connectors in separate pieces and you put together what you need from it. I'll rob the 1 wire I need from it (fortunately it's cheap and it's just the ground for the fuel gauge) and add that to the in-tank harness from Racetronix.

And also yes, I haven't gotten so much as a peep out of Racetronix. I'm also not impressed by them. But I really thought this would be a simple install, just follow the detailed write-up that's already on here. FYI, as of 2017 they still list their kit as coming with a Walbro pump, but it still comes with the Turbine Tech pump that they switched to some years ago. I thought I'd read somewhere that they switched back to the Walbro after customer complaints and issues with the other pump, but apparently not. Also, if you have any insight into this Turbine Tech thing, I'm all ears. I haven't found any confirmed reports of the pumps failing yet, and what they describe is that it's a turbine pump rather than a gear pump which reduces noise but provides the same flow rates, pressures, etc, and supposedly has a decent service life.

But it's a brand I've never heard of outside of members on here finding out that it's what comes in the kit instead of the Walbro. And after how many years now Racetronix still hasn't found it necessary to update the listing on their website to reflect what actually comes in the kit, leads me to believe that they are perfectly happy to deceive their customers. There's one thread in particular I've read through on here where it was obvious that customer support is not their thing, but again, I thought it'd be simple and it made the upgrade a lot easier than trying to put together something myself. We'll see I guess, and at least I can put together a detailed write up on how to put the kit into a D-body. And I might put up a few pics later so I can better explain what I'm looking at and what I'm thinking of doing to correct it. It's just a matter of tracking down the various connectors and pins and terminals I need, although I may have shortcuts to most of it at this point that may eliminate the need to solder anything except maybe one wire.
 

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The two grounds may be there to make it easier to diagnose issues in the tank. You would be able to determine if you have a ground fault for one or the other separately. You can also determine which part fails vs. pulling the tank for one and finding it is the other.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
The two grounds may be there to make it easier to diagnose issues in the tank. You would be able to determine if you have a ground fault for one or the other separately. You can also determine which part fails vs. pulling the tank for one and finding it is the other.
That's a possibility I suppose, but if the ground wire failed, wouldn't both the pump and gauge stop working on the B-body? Still pointing you in the direction of what went wrong?

Also I found another piece of the puzzle, the connector that attaches to the outside portion of the bulkhead connector from Racetronix has been elusive, but some digging on Mouser.com has led me to believe that it is a Metri-Pack 150.2 4-way connector, so now I know what terminals I need to populate the missing 4th terminal on this kit.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I wonder if there would be a market for D-body modded Racetronix kits? Aside from a couple of the tools, it won't cost much to modify it to work on the Fleetwood in a way that retains the factory dual ground wires. Basically it's going to come down to a metripack 150 female terminal, a couple weatherpack flat 4-way connectors (male and female), some weatherpack terminals (male and female) and some txl wire (black w/ white stripe if I want to retain factory color scheme).

And that's basically it, just need to determine what gauges of everything yet, and a few tools. Crimping tool(s) for weatherpack and metripack 150 terminals, metripack and weatherpack terminal removal tools, and maybe a decent wire stripper tool. It wasn't a planned part of this mod, but in the end I shouldn't have more than $50, maybe $60 into everything, and most of that is the tools. Hell at that point I could even build the entire Ractronix harness from scratch, if I were inclined. :wink2:
 

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As for just combining the grounds, it seems like it would work? But I haven't found any definitive answer why GM did it, best I can figure (and this comes from a comment on either one of the threads I found or one of the ones you mentioned) that it could be due to the Cadillac having a digital fuel gauge, so perhaps they isolated the circuit for some reason because of it being digital? Again, not sure, but I think I've nearly got it all sorted out, I just need to order some stuff. Since I have this all laid out on my bench anyways, I'll probably take pics of the mods I make to the Racetronix harness so anyone can do it on their Fleetwood in the future. The in tank is easy to fix, the parts stores all sell replacement in-tank harness that are just all the individual wires and the connectors in separate pieces and you put together what you need from it. I'll rob the 1 wire I need from it (fortunately it's cheap and it's just the ground for the fuel gauge) and add that to the in-tank harness from Racetronix.

And also yes, I haven't gotten so much as a peep out of Racetronix. I'm also not impressed by them. But I really thought this would be a simple install, just follow the detailed write-up that's already on here. FYI, as of 2017 they still list their kit as coming with a Walbro pump, but it still comes with the Turbine Tech pump that they switched to some years ago. I thought I'd read somewhere that they switched back to the Walbro after customer complaints and issues with the other pump, but apparently not. Also, if you have any insight into this Turbine Tech thing, I'm all ears. I haven't found any confirmed reports of the pumps failing yet, and what they describe is that it's a turbine pump rather than a gear pump which reduces noise but provides the same flow rates, pressures, etc, and supposedly has a decent service life.

QUOTE]

I was going to respond to this post last night but it was late. However, the last 2 posts you made kinda read my mind as far as what I was thinking then. It's been a while and can't remember for sure, but if you look at the 3rd picture in my thread here you will see the Racetronix Bulkhead fitting and Wiring Connector.

http://www.impalassforum.com/vBulletin/34-engine-problems-maintenance/1243034-racetronix-kit-install.html

The plug itself could have a wire added and might be all you need. What I'm not 100% sure about is if the bulkhead connector has a 4th metal pin that runs from the outside to the inside where the intank harness plugs in. I cant see that in my picture. But again, getting back to the Whole "Ground is Ground" comment, you should be able to just splice thos 2 together...I think. If you have any concerns, just use some test leads to wire things up temporarily outside of the tank to at least "electrically" test that all things work as they should before committing to splicing the 2 wires.

Another thought I had was I wonder if Gary (innovativewiring.com) would be interested in taking over where Raetronix has and make/offer similar kits? I may just shoot him a PM and see what he thinks. I know the quality would be impeccable and the Customer service would be the same and waaaaay better than the other guys.

Speaking of the "other guys" or Racetronix. I've defended them for quite a while on their customer service even though I was not a believer in how they provide that to their users. I've usually gotten answers to my questions and even offered them input on things I discovered that weren't in line with theirs cause I felt it was a better way to do it. Simple statement to describe racetronix...... "They have Awesome Products and are top quality parts but their Tech Support is not the best or easily accessed when needed."

There is a reason why I've changed my tune regarding their tech Support. But unless you have some Aptitude to "back yard engineer" a perfectly good part, you may run into issues. If you do have issues and can't figure it out yourself, you could be stuck with Really nice parts that you don't know how to install.

On the turbine tech pumps, both I and another member here shared with them concerns we had with the Turbine Tech Purple Pump they offer now. The other member even had his pump literally MELT and needed to be replaced. The thing that really pissed me off was that THEY removed both mine and his posts/Questions/Concerns/Pictures of said damage from their tech forum. We supplied good info with pictures and had a very good back and forth with them on the Purple Pump. This could be helpful to those looking at info but may make their "new" Turbine tech Pumps" look bad to someone. So what did they do days later with all that info? The Sneaky SOB's deleted all that info from their website. My only assumption is they did it to conceal the fact that these pumps have issues. I responded to them to ask where that info was and the little shyts had no response and I chose to move on. But that there is some downright sneaky garbage and they can't be trusted IMHHO based on that simple fact alone. So good products as far as the Harness stuff but don't like how they "seem" to be covering up issues with their Fuel Pump. Knock on wood mine is still working but when it fails, I will get the Walbro pump instead but continue to use their Harness.
 

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Actually just found this pic in my Library and it does look like the BulkHead Connector has the 4th Metal pin.



I would just put a meter on both sides to make sure it is fully connected inside the Yellow Housing but would think it is. You then just need to add the 4th Wire and Terminal to the Harness going to your factory plug.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I just checked, actually it is your write-up that I've had permanently open in my browser as a reference. My plan is to add the 4th wire, I've got everything ordered and tools in hand, just waiting for the rest of the bits and pieces to show up. In the tank, I'll delete the combined ground and add a separate ground for the fuel gauge, and use the open hole in the 4 pin connector in the tank that connects to the bulkhead connector. I could make that wire, but I think it ended up being cheaper to buy a harness kit for the Fleetwood from a parts store. O'reillys had it, good price and I'll just rob the ground wire I need from it. It would've cost more to buy a small spool of teflon/ptfe wire, and it wouldn't match the factory black w/ white stripe. The brand was Precision and according to the label it was actually made in the usa, so that 's a win.

On the outside, the 4 pin connector from the Racetronix harness is a Metri-pack 150.2 flat 4-way, and the 4th terminal is simply not there, it was plugged with a little plastic rod which can be pulled out. I've got Metri-pack 150 series female terminals on the way and a small spool of txl wire, black with a white stripe to match the factory stuff and I'll populate the open spot on that connector. I'll do continuity checks through everything to make sure pins are going where I think they should be, and I'll need to double check that the wires are in the same order on the B-body as the D-body, but if not I'll be de-pinning everything anyways to swap connectors and can reconnect them in the correct orientation if needed.

After that it goes to a Weather-pack flat 3-way, which I'll be replacing with a Weather-pack flat 4-way, those connectors and terminals are also on the way. On the hot wire upgrade harness, there's another set of Weather-pack flat 3-ways, which I'll also probably switch out with Weather-pack flat 4-ways. At least I think that'll be the easiest. I could maybe go another way and keep one set of 3-ways, and run the additional ground separately but that might just get messy. Once I get into it though I'll figure out what looks and works the best. And I'll get some pics so I can do a detailed write-up if anyone else ever runs into this and wants to mod it to work on a Fleetwood.

The only thing I wish I had done was order the wagon version of the hotwire upgrade for the extra length. I didn't even know Racetronix offered that, but it is on their website. I found it while searching other threads for solutions to the Fleetwood thing. Being the D-body is longer I may need to extend that wire, but that is the least of my problems in this whole mess. And I certainly don't dislike the Racetronix products, the quality is very good. It's just their lack of communication, nearly a full week has passed since I contacted them and still no response whatsoever. And I don't like how they've mouthed off to others on here when complaints were brought up.

Also, I too considered seeing if Gary would be interested in duplicating the Racetronix harnesses and adding them to his lineup, including a Fleetwood version. It'd be perfectly easy for him to make them, and at this point I have every single component identified save for a couple that I don't need to mess with. The bulkhead connector is one example, I don't know specifically how to identify or find a source for those, but I haven't tried because I don't need to mess with it. I suspect it's easy to track down though. Then you could use whatever pump you want, factory, aftermarket, high-performance, etc, just get the harnesses from him, and get the pump of your choice. May need to have a couple different connectors to the pump itself available since they're not all the same.

There's only one weird anomaly I've come across, all the wire is supposed to 14awg, except I think a heavier wire for the hot wire upgrade up to the battery/alternator, but the short harness between the bulkhead and the vehicle harness is no way 14awg. It's definitely smaller, but that might be a limitation of the 150 series Metri-pack connectors, you're not supposed to put a larger wire into the terminals, I think 16awg is the max rated size, or maybe only 18awg, I'd have to double check my info on those. Unless he went with a solid wire there to handle more current but keep the size down?

I haven't de-pinned that harness yet so I'm not sure, but the wire seems awful tiny to me and seems to defeat the point of everything else being 14awg or bigger. And yet even the in-tank harness does have 14awg wire, and the connector at the bottom of the bulkhead connector is using 150 series terminals and he managed to cram the larger wires for the +12v and ground to the pump onto those. It's just weird, I'll have spare 150 terminals since they come in pkgs of... I think 10 is the smallest qty, so I could get some more txl wire and redo that harness while I'm at it. It just seems silly to have 14awg everywhere, but then bottleneck the wire to the pump right before entering the tank, and then go back to 14awg inside the tank.

Your points about the pump failure issues cause me some concern. I could've sworn that I had seen posts about them failing a couple years ago when I first started making up my list of support mods I wanted to do before attempting to get serious power out of the motor, but I couldn't find them when I recently received my kit and discovered the purple pump in it. Makes me wonder if I should save myself the headache now and just order a Walbro while everything is apart and out and while I'm waiting for other stuff to show up. The pump by itself isn't terrible price wise, but by the time I get done with this I'm going to have a lot more than the original $200-ish into this upgrade.

Last thing of note, I was pleased to discover that I was able to get a new fuel tank seal. There's a parts dealer in town that primarily supplies the dealers and mechanics in the area, but they have a counter inside and a person can go in and buy whatever they want. You can get most of the same parts that the dealer has, but without the dealer markup. I got a genuine ACDelco seal (last one they had on hand), Made in Canada, and was about $7. They also even sell some stuff on ebay, but they whack on you on the shipping.

That's enough of my rambling on for now, and I added a pic of my present "nightmare". Hopefully next week I'll have this wrapped up and the car running again.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I did answer one of my own questions, the harness that goes from the bulkhead connector to the vehicle harness (or the hot wire upgrade harness if using that) is definitely 14awg for the +12v and ground to the pump. I think the wiring for the in-tank harness just has thicker insulation due to it needed to survive being permanently submersed in gasoline. The wires for the fuel gauge are a smaller gauge, probably 16awg or maybe 18awg, but those are certainly not critical.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
The Caddy lives. I worked on it until about 2am Friday night, but had a few loose ends to tie up before testing it. Then one of my younger brothers had a garage door go ka-blooey on him, so I spent Saturday helping him fix that. But today I was able to wrap everything up, put a couple gallons of gas in it and test fire it. Works beautifully, test drove it and filled the tank up completely and test drove some more. So far no leaks that I can detect and working fine. I do have a bunch of pics of modding the harness so I'll do a separate write-up just for that, but it is the complete Racetronix kit installed. I did swap out the unknown purple pump with an actual Walbro (so if somebody wants a turbine tech pump, brand new never used, let me know I'd prob sell it for a good price) and did end up replacing the sending unit after discovering more rust on the metal lines than what I was comfortable with. And a few other little things, but all documented. Also, fyi the racetronix harness will reach all the way to the alternator or distribution box of a Fleetwood if run inside the frame rail, but will not make it to the battery unless you extend the wire. I'll work on the write-up another day though, because now I need to turn my attention to getting my brothers Vette back on the road. Added bonus, although the pump is noticeably a bit louder than stock, I cannot hear it at all inside the car over the exhaust so, works for me. :grin2:
 
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