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Discussion Starter #1
Guys,
I'm at a loss as well as the guy who started this site Scott Williams/HACK, who installed my Viper Alarm/Renote Start unit; P/N: 5305V. Scott also does custom car stereo installs, as well as alarms and remote start installs. He has done this professionally and now only does it as a side-business on the weekend.

The problem is that the starter solenoid stays engaged when the temperature is at freezing or below.

1. At first I thought maybe the starter solenoid is old and slow at reacting, so I replaced the entire starter assembly with the AutoZone/Duralast Corvette Starter.
-SAME RESULTS-
2. Scott tells me Clifford, Avital, and Viper alarms are all the same, and just the branding is different. We physically take the black box/brain of the Viper, and replace it with an Avital unit (He also sells; NEW)@ 50' temperatures, everything is fine.
3. I try the next morning whern the temperatures outside are below freezing. SAME THING, the starter solenoid stays engaged.
I start the car manually after each time the solenoid sticks, and there's NO PROBLEM.
4. I let the car/engine warm up for approximately 8-10 minutes, and stop the engine. I then try the remote start, and there's no problem.
5. The next thing Scott wires the output/starter solenoid circuit thru a relay. SAME THING cold, and then the same thing hot; okay.

Could the ignition switch on the column possibly be the problem? I have no where to turn but there; right?

It's really frustrating since that's the point of the remote start is to warm up the vehicle when she's cold.

Both myself and Scott are at a loss, so I thought I'd try and post up here.

Amy ideas are appreciated!

Thanks!
 

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When this issue pops up for me it is a car issue.


Normally what happens is the car starts at a lower RPM than when warmed up. Remote starter is programed for a higher RPM. So engine is firing and remote starter does not stop the starter because RPM is not high enough for it to think the engine is running.


This normally happens when the car is well below freezing. Where I am 50 degF is closer to room temperature than cold.


If this is the issue programming a lower start RPM may work or a car tune up,
 

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The way I test for this is to get in the car when it is cold. Then put the key in the ignition. Hit the remote start, then after it starts cranking and you think the engine is running turn the key to run and hit the brake pedal to cancel the remote start. If the engine keeps running you have a slow RPM at cold start.


How are you getting the RPM signal to the remote starter? From the PCM or from the ignition coil? The other possibility is the remote starter is not seeing all the RPM pulses for some reason.


I would use a scan tool to see what RPM the car starts at cold and compare it to the warm start RPM.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
The way I test for this is to get in the car when it is cold. Then put the key in the ignition. Hit the remote start, then after it starts cranking and you think the engine is running turn the key to run and hit the brake pedal to cancel the remote start. If the engine keeps running you have a slow RPM at cold start.


How are you getting the RPM signal to the remote starter? From the PCM or from the ignition coil? The other possibility is the remote starter is not seeing all the RPM pulses for some reason.
I'm not sure since Scott wired the unit. I would assume it's from the PCM.


I would use a scan tool to see what RPM the car starts at cold and compare it to the warm start RPM.
Okay, I know warm idle is ~685RPM. I'm not sure cold, but I would think cold would be at a higher RPM almost like an older carburetor'd engine with a choke on.

I'll have to see if I can dig up electric PDF copies of the installation manual online.

Do you know how I can change the start RPM to be lower in the viper unit?
 

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O
kay, I know warm idle is ~685RPM. I'm not sure cold, but I would think cold would be at a higher RPM almost like an older carburetor'd engine with a choke on.
I want to be clear there may be a difference between commanded idle and the point the engine is spinning under it's own power.
When the engine is running properly it will "fire" and then attempt to command a high idle with the IAC and injectors. When the engine does not combust in every cylinder properly the PCM will try to raise idle but physically the engine does not respond. Cold idle may briefly be over 1000 RPM. (I think there are several tables affecting this but I would have to look. air temperature, coolant etc)



By scanning a cold start you see "fire up" RPM and if there is a delay before the engine actually gets to targeted high idle. Can you smell more un burnt fuel at a cold start vs a warm start?



Do you know how I can change the start RPM to be lower in the viper unit?
Sorry I have not payed attention to the industry in years. Some manufactures cranked by time only(bad), some are programmable, some "learned" the RPM at installation. A remote start should always stop when the brake peddle is pressed or the engine is reved(aprox 2000 RPM)


I am trying to sort out three crown vics that start cold ok but need two tries of the remote start if plugged in. On manual start they "fire" when the starter is released. The PCM is confused by something but all sensors seem ok.
 

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Junior, I don't know much about all this. I do know that you had put a new ICM on your car recently. Did the starter stick before that? Is it possible something is outta whack here? Just spit ballin it.

Mark: Snowman-33
 

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Discussion Starter #7
OI want to be clear there may be a difference between commanded idle and the point the engine is spinning under it's own power.
We're getting into terminology I'm not familiar with with, like engine programming, but if I were to make an edjucated guess I would assume that 'Commanded Idle' is the RPM the PCM is commanding/thinking the engine should be at with the A/F ratio, and timing?

When the engine is running properly it will "fire" and then attempt to command a high idle with the IAC and injectors. When the engine does not combust in every cylinder properly the PCM will try to raise idle but physically the engine does not respond. Cold idle may briefly be over 1000 RPM. (I think there are several tables affecting this but I would have to look. air temperature, coolant etc)
Okay, I can understand and think of this as the choke cam on a carburetor. Engine idle is raised, but the butterfly on top of the primaries is kept more at a closed position for greater fuel to air ratio.

By scanning a cold start you see "fire up" RPM and if there is a delay before the engine actually gets to targeted high idle. Can you smell more un burnt fuel at a cold start vs a warm start?
Sadly, I haven't been able to get my old laptop software laplink working on my newer O/S laptop. I think I had it last working under Win-7. I only have Torque via android. I could see if my dad still has his OBD2 diagnostic reader. I'm not sure what all that jobbie can do.

As far as idle, it sounded like the LH tailpipe had a rough idle sound as opposed to the RH when I listened on a cold start over the weekend.

I'd still really like to get to playing with the OBD1 PCM I have and seeing if I can connect to it using the Moates interface and Scan94/95 or EEHack or whatever. But these are things where I have 0 education, and no one around me has any either, so I'm a bit intimitaded by the unknown.
 

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As far as idle, it sounded like the LH tailpipe had a rough idle sound as opposed to the RH when I listened on a cold start over the weekend.

This is what I was thinking you would find. No need to worry about PCM programming, or the remote starter.


There are many ways to sort this out. Same things you would do to a carburetor car. Put a timing light on the lead between the ignition coil and the opti. On a cold start you may see the strobe light flicker as the spark plugs do not fire. Since you can hear a difference I would just put the timing light on each of the LH plug wires and check out the ones that do not flash steady. Different plugs(new) may be all you need or a plug wire. A old school shop would wheel out a scope into the parking lot and identify plug, or plugs that were not firing but it can usually be done with a timing light and patience.


I would assume that 'Commanded Idle' is the RPM the PCM is commanding/thinking the engine should be at with the A/F ratio, and timing?

Same as the cold start cam that holds the carb throttle open for fast idle.


Okay, I can understand and think of this as the choke cam on a carburetor. Engine idle is raised, but the butterfly on top of the primaries is kept more at a closed position for greater fuel to air ratio.

Same way on this PCM. It does not learn about starting it just does the same thing every time. A old mechanic once told me not to use any mechanic that started by changing carb settings or timing. He felt that if carb and distributor were in good condition the problem would be else where and adjustments would just hide the real problem and when things got bad enough to find the real problem I would have to pay again to have fuel and timing reset.


only have Torque via android.
I thought it would have RPM. You might be able to see a difference between a cold and warm start with it.


Ears, eyes, and nose can still help on modern cars. Follow the LH rough idle.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
This is what I was thinking you would find. No need to worry about PCM programming, or the remote starter.
Well I'm pretty sure I've got this already figured out to #5 cylinder plug wire. I had the Taylor Spiro-Pro wire go bad one morning a few months ago on my way to work. I cam home, and patched in a used wire from my tahoe, after forcing off the 90' aluminum boot protector between the Clear Image Auto header and cylinder head.

I have a new set of wires to install (The ones installed may ONLY have ~10,000 miles), so instead of the aluminum boot protectors, I may install the accell spark plug boot protectors.
-Are they just supposed to sit on the header tube? They're so big there's no tying them down or soemthing, so I didn't use them. They seemed like they would be ugly as all get out, and I can't inagine the proper install is for them to just sit compressed between the header tube and the cylinder head all ugly.
That's why I chose OEM 90' spark plug boots, but that didn't seem to work well on #5 wire.

I thought it would have RPM. You might be able to see a difference between a cold and warm start with it.
It does have RPM, I'll now motor it, and just for kicks go check it at lunch, although it's not a cold-cold engine.

Ears, eyes, and nose can still help on modern cars. Follow the LH rough idle.
I have been taking wqeekends trying to finish an engine rebuild on my '98 Tahoe that I have down to plug wires, fuel, and exhaust, I plan on finishing Saturday morning. Then I can get back to maintenance on my dang car!

Then I get to replace the RH door the 6-point buck caved in on me....
 

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Discussion Starter #10
This is what I was thinking you would find. No need to worry about PCM programming, or the remote starter.
I thought it would have RPM. You might be able to see a difference between a cold and warm start with it.
Ears, eyes, and nose can still help on modern cars. Follow the LH rough idle.
I was getting a ahead of myself here in the thread yesterday. I agree that some good old plain-jane diagnostics need to be done to proceed further.

I hope to be able to dedicate some time Saturday afternoon back to the caprice, and the various little tweaks I need to make, one affecting the other, so the list gets a little long, and time consuming to be able to get them all accomplished.

I've got an extra set of AC Delco spark plugs that I've had sitting in the tool box for a while now. Even though no cylinder appears out-right to have a problem of not performing, I will just replace them all when I do the set of wires. The engine as a whole may just not performing at a perfect level that I require of my vehicles.

I just need to get my Tahoe done so I don't have to worry about the various project for the Caprice getting completed in a day.
 

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1. At first I thought maybe the starter solenoid is old and slow at reacting, so I replaced the entire starter assembly with the AutoZone/Duralast Corvette Starter.
-SAME RESULTS-
Um my first question should have been: Are you sure your battery is good?
I like my AC/Delco vette starter and it uses less power than the Caprice starter. but these engines need a good battery.


I hope you get some productive time in the garage this weekend. I have a foot of snow and -30deg in my forecast.
 

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on a cold start like below 40F the engine rpm should be around 1400rpm. then it will slowly drop down to about 700rpm.... depends on how cold.. zero F could take 5 min to drop to 700RPM..


then when the coolant temp is above 160F area the idle should be about 550-600 in gear.


if the engine idles low on the cold start I would clean the TB and remove the IAC use some MAF cleaner or TB cleaner with NO acetone in the spray can..
IAC cold be binding when cold ..


I am not up on remote starters ... never had any interest in this ..
 

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Discussion Starter #13
1. At first I thought maybe the starter solenoid is old and slow at reacting, so I replaced the entire starter assembly with the AutoZone/Duralast Corvette Starter.
-SAME RESULTS-
Um my first question should have been: Are you sure your battery is good?
I like my AC/Delco vette starter and it uses less power than the Caprice starter. but these engines need a good battery.

It's a 3 year old {MAX} glass mat 72-Seeies branded by a local's name which escapes me now. It's always been well maintained, but in light of things these days really isn't saying much.

I've got my truck's Interstate traditional 72 series on the CTEK charger at the moment, so for $hits & giggles, I will swap batteries around 05:30 tomorrow.

I'll keep the thread updated, as well....

Time for bed....


I hope you get some productive time in the garage this weekend. I have a foot of snow and -30deg in my forecast.
It's a 3 year old {MAX} glass mat 72-Seeies branded by a local's name which escapes me now. It's always been well maintained, but in light of things these days really isn't saying much.

I've got my truck's Interstate traditional 72 series on the CTEK charger at the moment, so for $hits & giggles, I will swap batteries around 05:30 tomorrow.

I'll keep the thread updated, as well....

Time for bed....
 
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