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Discussion Starter #1
I will be installing a carpet this summer and broke my torx T47 to get it.

The search gave me no good information so I looked at the internet.

Several GM forums had the same answer: The T47 Torx Plus.

Several of the "Tool Truck" companies sell them. They describe them as for: GM seat belt bolts and GM door strikers.

I will leave it to you to look up torx vs torx plus images. The torx plus is just a bit larger and the torx bit will be loose in a torx plus bolt.

Got my T47 torx plus and was going to take pictures and settle the debate for all time.

Wrong!

What I found was different batches of bolts were in fact different.

The ones I took off a 93 Caprice I will call smooth socket type. The small outboard bolts will accept the T50 to about 1/2 depth and if the bolt turns easy should work. The longer bolts on the floor pan for the latches are different. The bit will only enter the bolt a very short distance and if you hammer the bit onto the bolt it may work. The T47 Torx Plus goes to the bottom of both bolts and fits tight.

My other bolt stash I thought came from a 93 Roadmaster but may have some 96 9C1 bolts mixed in. These bolts look like they have a small drill divot at the bottom. A T50 might be hammered into this type but I expect bolt head damage and a very high probability of breaking the T50 as very little of it will contact the bolt head. The T47 Torx Plus goes to the bottom and fits tight.

I think you can get replacement bolts so you may want to toss your bad ones.

Through a internet search I found a post about the T47 Torx Plus on this forum. I can not find it now. If anyone can find the original post I would like to give him credit for this.
 

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I always use a TORX 50. The one from Harbor Freight fits best. I have one from Autozone, and it does not fit. I have tapped one in now and then, and have not broken any. The TORX should fit very snugly, or they are prone to breaking. The idea is to use all of the bit shape to put pressure on the bolt, not just the tips of the shape.
 

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I’ll just add that having worked on cars for a living, both in auto body & as a mechanic, have run into issues and differences with this.
Have a few different bits t47, t50, etc., and I just use whatever fits best.

I removed and replaced all if mine in ‘94, and removed all from a ‘96 parts wagon using my t50 bit. A t47 was too loose, but would’ve worked being careful. My t50 is a Matco, and I have 2 or 3 different t47 bits all different manufacturers.
 

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As others have said, T50 is the correct size.
I use a cheap A$$ craftsman and never broken it because
it is the right size.
Tap it in for a super tight fit and use a pipe on your ratchet for leverage.
Nab
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Blue Wail and Fred Kiehl. I would like to thank you and a few others for sharing your knowledge, and demonstrating great patience on this forum. You and others have saved me uncountable time and money.

That said take your best seat belt bolt to a high end tool vendor and try a "GM style" Torx Plus T47, a normal T47, and a normal T50 and see which one
The idea is to use all of the bit shape to put pressure on the bolt, not just the tips of the shape
I have with a varied bolt sample and the Torx Plus T47 goes deeper and fits tighter than a normal T47(loose) and a T50(does not go to bottom).

The Torx is a tapered bit. \/
It is possible to engage many fasteners with "the next size up" This does not make it the best choice.
Many fasteners have a beveled or tapered top to make insertion easier but this area of the fastener is not used to drive it.
I suspect that Torx does not specify the tip dimensions and tool manufactures cause further confusion by varying tip dimensions.
The torx plus is just a bit larger and has the correct shape for maximum drive contact.

Please provide a example where you
Tap it in
to get the proper sized tool to connect properly with a clean undamaged fastener.

Search torx vs torx plus

https://www.acument.com/products/comparison/
 

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Blue Wail and Fred Kiehl. I would like to thank you and a few others for sharing your knowledge, and demonstrating great patience on this forum. You and others have saved me uncountable time and money.

That said take your best seat belt bolt to a high end tool vendor and try a "GM style" Torx Plus T47, a normal T47, and a normal T50 and see which one I have with a varied bolt sample and the Torx Plus T47 goes deeper and fits tighter than a normal T47(loose) and a T50(does not go to bottom).

The Torx is a tapered bit. \/
It is possible to engage many fasteners with "the next size up" This does not make it the best choice.
Many fasteners have a beveled or tapered top to make insertion easier but this area of the fastener is not used to drive it.
I suspect that Torx does not specify the tip dimensions and tool manufactures cause further confusion by varying tip dimensions.
The torx plus is just a bit larger and has the correct shape for maximum drive contact.

Please provide a example where you to get the proper sized tool to connect properly with a clean undamaged fastener.

Search torx vs torx plus

https://www.acument.com/products/comparison/
I'll chime in since I have replaced the carpet in both my 1998 Tahoe & Caprice. Both use a T50 headed bolt.

There were two in my truck that were extremely tough to remove. I first sheared the torx area head off my existing/old 1/2 drive socket. I don't recall if it was a Craftsman at the moment, but I ended up getting a long shafted T50, 1/2 Drive, from MAC Tools.

I ended up having to weld a hex nut to the top of the bolts which had started to have the T50 socket/recess strip. Those came out with very little resistance after the bolts were thoroughly heated from the arc welding.

I got all new short bolts from my local GM parts guy, so replacements are still available. I didn't try replacing the shouldered seat belt hold down bolts since they were in great shape.

Any way FYI.....
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
I have removed these bolts with vice grips and a hammer.

If I came on the forum and said I have never tried any other method and the hammer and vice grips must be the correct tools and the easiest ones to use what would you think?

I know I and many people before me have used a T50. That does not automatically make it the correct or best tool.

Good enough is the enemy of excellence.
 

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...I suspect that Torx does not specify the tip dimensions and tool manufactures cause further confusion by varying tip dimensions...
Torx is a brand name, like Kleenex. The shape is dictated by ISO 10664.

Torx Plus are also a brand name, and were introduced in the early 90s. I really doubt GM used it for the seatbelt fasteners in the B-Bodies.

Size-for-size, Torx bits will work with Torx Plus fasteners, but not vice-versa.

Now, that doesn't mean the tool manufacturers aren't cheating on their tolerances and producing poorly fitting, sub-standard bits, or the fastener suppliers are doing the same on their screws.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Torx is a brand name, like Kleenex. The shape is dictated by ISO 10664.
Torx is actually a trademark of Camcar Textron. Torx was developed by them in 1967 then patented. In the 90s when the patent was running out they patented the Torx Plus(good to 2019) and trademarked Torx.

ISO 10664 is the generic version as is"star fastener" and "six lobe recess". There is no one other than Torx that can enforce the shape of a tool or fastener. If it says Torx it should meet the Torx requirements.

Now, that doesn't mean the tool manufacturers aren't cheating on their tolerances and producing poorly fitting, sub-standard bits, or the fastener suppliers are doing the same on their screws.
.

I always use a TORX 50. The one from Harbor Freight fits best. I have one from Autozone, and it does not fit.
Fred Kiehl

I am in Canada there is a rumor that Harbor Freight sometimes does not make the best tools.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
I grabbed my T50 bits, the new T47+, and my seat bolts.
First thing I noticed is that one manufacturer did not use Torx on any of its packaging.
So my T50 sample is this:
torx tamper proof, Late 1980s no name Torx, unlabeled T50
One T47+ new off a tool truck.

I quickly sampled my bolt pile and the calipers gave a minimum head depth of 0.18" and a maximum of 0.185."

Did some quick sampling and the best T50 bit into bolt I could get was 0.1030"
The T47+ would repeatably give a depth of 0.1640"

So the T47+ went into all bolts 27% deeper.

Some T50 bit bolt combinations did not penetrate deep enough to hold the bit in the bolt. I call that a fail.

I placed each bit tip down on a flat surface and measured each tip for maximum diameter. I then used two washers to raise the measurement height 0.158" I would have used smaller washers if I had known the T50s at best would penetrate 0.1030"

....tip of T50: 0.3455" 0.3470" 0.3450" Tip of T47+ 0.3355"
Shaft of T50: 0.3575" 0.3580" 0.3485" Shaft of T47+0.3490"

The first is the tamper proof Torx and it was the best of the T50
The plain Torx was next best.
The "T50" that did not say Torx fit the worst.

The T47+ was 0.3355" at the tip and 0.3490" at the shaft measurement.

The point to all this is that the T47+ is only 2.4% different in diameter(.3490/.3575) when compared to a T50.

The T47+ penetrates 27% deeper into the bolt.(.1030/.1640)


The seat belt bolt is a safety item. Why risk damaging it by "tapping in" a T50?
 

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Torx is actually a trademark of Camcar Textron. Torx was developed by them in 1967 then patented. In the 90s when the patent was running out they patented the Torx Plus(good to 2019) and trademarked Torx.

ISO 10664 is the generic version as is"star fastener" and "six lobe recess". There is no one other than Torx that can enforce the shape of a tool or fastener. If it says Torx it should meet the Torx requirements.
Like I said, Torx is a brand name like Kleenex. It's a trademark that's become the generic term for a type of product.

Manufacturers can license the Torx name from Acument if they wanted and apply it to a hexalobular drive screw or tool (which some have done), or they could come up with their own brand name ("Pointlobe", "Starscrew", or "Six Wave Drive"), or keep it generic.

The original Torx drive shape is now a standardized type that's dictated by the ISO standard. Nobody "owns" the specific shape anymore.
 

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I tap them in, because they are tight, and the bolt may be plated after manufacture, making it just a little smaller than spec. You will not damage the bolt by tapping the bit in, but you are more likely to damage both the bolt and tool if it is too loose.
 

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Yeah IDK what the OP is talking about. I've just got a random cheapo set of torx bits I got at autozone and the T50 works fine on my car.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I know I and many people before me have used a T50. That does not automatically make it the correct or best tool.

Good enough is the enemy of excellence.
I was interested in threeimpalas information.:
The shape is dictated by ISO 10664.
I contend that since Torx patented the product the ISO information may not be identical.
But let us look at it. If the link breaks search ISO 10664.

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwje1dua3u7ZAhUG6GMKHbv2CSgQFggnMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sis.se%2Fapi%2Fdocument%2Fpreview%2F615502%2F&usg=AOvVaw3a8VM9GWiD_RMFYR0lUDov

They show a "GO gauge" figure 3
So table 3 has depth dimensions H min and H max. For a GO gauge

H min for T50:5.97mm or 0.235"
H max for T50:6.48mm or 0.255"

My measurement of the seat belt bolt depth:
H min of 0.18"
H max of 0.185."

H min for T45:5.71mm or 0.225"
H max for T45:6.22mm or 0.245"

If I understand ISO correctly the gauge should fit inside the bolt within 1.2mm

My crude measurement was from top of head to deepest point. So ISO does not seem to apply to this bolt head.

Back to is the bit deep enough in the fastener not to do damage to the fastener?

Ford was concerned enough to publish it's requirements. Search standard six lobe recess if the link breaks.

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwizxvu33e7ZAhVJxGMKHdcqADsQFggnMAA&url=http://greensladeandcompany.com/wp-content/themes/greenslade-theme/pdf/articles/standards/Standards-Six%20Lobe%20Recess%20-%20prepublish.pdf&usg=AOvVaw03PvgfjiWDrmNN4pxU1jcW

The last line of the last table is for a 5/16 fastener with a T45 head:
Minimum penetration: 0.130"
Maximum penetration 0.159"

I will suggest that a T50 bit should penetrate a fastener deeper than the minimum depth of a T45.

The question you must ask yourself:

Is the T50 bit going deep enough into the seat belt bolt to prevent bolt damage?

I could not under the best conditions get a Torx T50 bit more than 0.1030" without hammering. Fords suggestion is a min of 0.130" for a T45.

Several generations of my family came from Missouri "the show me state".

Tell me different bolts give different results. It looks like 92-94 bolts and 95-96 bolts have different part numbers?
Information from bolts removed with a T47 or a T47+ would be interesting.
I would like to see any information that does NOT involve hammering a T50 into a bolt.
 

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[SNIP]

I would like to see any information that does NOT involve hammering a T50 into a bolt.
This is the only portion I'll comment on. Maybe your socket isn't manufactured to the same specifications as mine?

I write that because I DIDN'T have to HAMMER the socket into the head of my seat belt bolts for proper engagement; this is in both the '98 Tahoe & '96 Caprice

My T50 MAC Tools socket fits the bolts perfectly, as did the one I broke the tip off.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
This is the only portion I'll comment on. Maybe your socket isn't manufactured to the same specifications as mine?
.
I posted three examples of mine. Compare them to the ISO table. They look OK to me. Post them If I am wrong.

My T50 MAC Tools socket fits the bolts perfectly
You have not posted the specifications of yours. MAC sometimes says "Stardriver" sometimes Torx.

Please give me a idea of what depth you consider "perfect"?

Insert bit. use a felt pen to mart the top of head on the bit. Remove and measure bit tip to line with a caliper. I got just as good results by putting my thumb nail on the bolt head and removing the bit then measured bit tip to thumb nail.
I sampled ten bolts. Which I have stated are probably from 93 b body cars.


this is in both the '98 Tahoe & '96 Caprice
I have not referenced information from Corvette Camero Firebird S10 Tahoe or any other GM. They too have the same information.IE T50 works T47+ should be used.

As you have a 96 you could measure the torx depth of the head. I have no way of doing this. I put the caliper end on the bolt head and used the caliper tip to measure the depth.

Do you have a single owner car so your experience is 100% non hammer?

Again I know a T50 works. Is it the best choice?
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I ended up having to weld a hex nut to the top of the bolts which had started to have the T50 socket/recess strip. Those came out with very little resistance after the bolts were thoroughly heated from the arc welding.
My T50 MAC Tools socket fits the bolts perfectly, as did the one I broke the tip off.
By chance was it only the top of the bolt that damaged? Did the bottom of the bolt's head look damaged or untouched?
 

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.
I posted three examples of mine. Compare them to the ISO table. They look OK to me. Post them If I am wrong.

You have not posted the specifications of yours. MAC sometimes says "Stardriver" sometimes Torx.
I looked quickly at the MAC Tools website at lunch, and couldn't find the specific bit/tool I have. I could only find complete sets. I'll have to look in the toolbox either later tonight or tomorrow, since I'll be busy right after work for a few hours.

Please give me a idea of what depth you consider "perfect"?
I would consider a perfect depth to be that the tool is inserted as far as the recess will allow; full engagement.

Insert bit. use a felt pen to mart the top of head on the bit. Remove and measure bit tip to line with a caliper. I got just as good results by putting my thumb nail on the bolt head and removing the bit then measured bit tip to thumb nail.
I sampled ten bolts. Which I have stated are probably from 93 b body cars.
I can do that on both vehicles.

I have not referenced information from Corvette Camero Firebird S10 Tahoe or any other GM. They too have the same information.IE T50 works T47+ should be used.
Okay.

As you have a 96 you could measure the torx depth of the head. I have no way of doing this. I put the caliper end on the bolt head and used the caliper tip to measure the depth.
Yes I have a pair of digital calipers and can do that too.

Do you have a single owner car so your experience is 100% non hammer?
I'm not sure. I know I the previous gentleman was an older fella and he took the car back to the dealer for every service. I've got all of those receipts in storage, so I can not verify, but I would feel safe in saying that the bolts especially for the rear seat, are most likely OEM, since I can't imagine anyone but us car guys removing it to do a carpet R&R job.

Again I know a T50 works. Is it the best choice?
Now that I think about it, I don't know if I do have a T47 socket. I'll have to check, as I remember using my set to find what fit properly, and going from there. It could be that I don't own a T47, so I can't say for sure.

But as I wrote earlier, I used my T50 on an impact gun, and had no strippage on any of the bolts with the exception of the two in my Tahoe that I commented on earlier.

I looked at my emails from my GM dealer parts guy, and couldn't find the invoice for the bolts themselves to investigate exactly what I got, but I may have the receipt at home.

Anyway, a bit of investigative work that I can either get done tomorrow night or Saturday, just to complete the data here.
 

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By chance was it only the top of the bolt that damaged? Did the bottom of the bolt's head look damaged or untouched?
Only the 6-point recess started to strip/deform. The rest of the bolt was just fine from what I remember. I don't recall specifically looking at the bottom since I tossed it in the garbage, but feel safe in writing that only the recess was damaged.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Now that I think about it, I don't know if I do have a T47 socket. I'll have to check, as I remember using my set to find what fit properly, and going from there. It could be that I don't own a T47, so I can't say for sure.
My recommendation is NOT aT47.

My recommendation is: Torx Plus T47 (GM style)

It has a different lobe pattern and it's diameter (by my measurement) only 2.4% smaller than a T50.

The T47+ "perfect fit" is 0.1640" which is very close to my bottom of bolt measurement of 0.180" to 0.185"

I looked quickly at the MAC Tools website at lunch, and couldn't find the specific bit/tool I have. I could only find complete sets. I'll have to look in the toolbox either later tonight or tomorrow, since I'll be busy right after work for a few hours.
It would save you time if you just measured the T50 tip.

This is the only portion I'll comment on. Maybe your socket isn't manufactured to the same specifications as mine?
You forgot to post whether my T50 bits measurements seemed to match the ISO 10664 information.

I appreciate that you will spend time on this.

Even in the same car there are several different bolts. Seat belt anchor, different latch bolts(impala VS bench), and again three types in the back. One would expect them to all be the same but I got my best T50 fit on the short bolts for the front seat belt, and no fit on some of the long bolts that hold a latch and middle belt)

As I have posted before the T47 is loose when compared to a Torx Plus T47.
 
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