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Discussion Starter #1
This is just a follow up to my previous post on the show classes being combined at St. Louis. I'd like to get others opinions about how that sort of thing should be handled in the future.
Of course as I mentioned if you are going to harp on rules then you should "follow" them and not adjust them to suit your needs. Show classes are broken down so cars can compete against cars with the same or close to the same level of mods and or usage. You certainly would not combine a Modified car with a Mild Street or a Stock car. Or would you if it made things easier (I2K2)????
I know some folks out there who traveled far and worked very hard to put their cars up against like competition. I hope that will not deter you from coming to further shows. You should not be penalized because you fall into a class with few entries.
I will make sure this point is heard to my fellow HOSS members so people who come to IMPALAFEST will get what is advertised and not what is convienient at the moment.
This is not a bash to GRAIL who put on a very nice event. But following a simple set of show rules is too easy not to adhere to
 
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Discussion Starter #2
I believe the show rules fall under ISSCA's jurisdiction. I just finished a conversation about this with head show judge, Larry Hall, and the response I got from him was, everything has to go through the BOD (ISSCA). We need to make our voices heard to the right people, including the board of directors if ISSCA is truly going to be "for the people".

These "change the rules to fit the situation" scenarios must not become a mainstay in our shows.

I was also told that it was our responsibility to follow up with the classes, since, after all, "it IS YOUR CAR". Forgive me for thinking that when we checked in that we should assume the information would be accurate and not be subject to change.

Either way, we are to blame for not following up and hunting down the proper authorities to see where we were as far as classification goes.

:rolleyes:
 
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Discussion Starter #3
You are right Karen. But once we have been assigned a class, prepare as such, enter the correct "lane", follow the "rules", then be blind-sided at the awards ceremony that we have been combined in another class is just wrong. Check the rules posted on the ISSCA page for shows. It's clear we should be notified and given the option to move up or down in class to compete if "we" wish when there are not enough cars in a class. Nobody I spoke to was asked or notified before the awards. Anyone who was please correct me.
Maybe an ISSCA BOD member would choose to comment here :confused:
 
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Discussion Starter #4
Easy, Fred! I'm on your side!! By me not double checking, checking again and for taking someone's word for something (heaven forbid!!), I lost a first place trophy!! I am not any happier about the rules and such any more than you are! I'm with you, bud!

I never said I agree with Larry, I just said I talked to him. Larry and I do not usually agree on much of anything regarding shows(a woman, after all, doesn't know squat about car shows)!!

There has been one instance, regarding judging at I2K, (Gail knows what I am talking about here!!) that has been stuck in my mind for 2 years now. It changed my outlook on showing at events like this. It also changed the way I see the person directly involved with it. The only reason I even judged is so I knew I did my part to keep things on the level. It didn't work then, and it didn't work now, either. Now there are other issues with I2K2. I am beginning to wonder if all the hard work is really worth all the bull ****.

I definately agree that you guys that got combined got screwed.
 
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Discussion Starter #5
Oh, and by the way...

Thought I should clarify this before someone chimes in and says I am whining about the way the show turned out

As far as the first place trophy in class is concerned, my best friend was the winner. The look on his face and the opportunity for me to be there with him at that moment was worth more to me than any trophy collecting dust on the shelf could ever be.

Knowing my point totals and having a friend like Morgan is more than enough!
 
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Discussion Starter #6
Yea, my modified over 120,000 mile and wrecked impala got bunched with a bunch of really nice 94s... well there were only 4 of us but still... I got routed
 
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Discussion Starter #7
It seems as though no one else sees anything wrong with this picture! :confused:

I know that no one is going to change the past, but some one better damn well see that this type of thing doesn't happen again in the future!
 
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Discussion Starter #8
Karen : write up a proposal for how the show classes would be changed, and give it to your regional ISSCA director or another BOD member (I am a BOD member). Things can't be changed if we (the ISSCA BOD) have no guidance on HOW folks want them to be changed!

In other words, my mind reading SSkillSS SSuck aSS :D

If I am reading the rules correctly, if a class has less than 3 entrants then the entrants will be moved up or down (the entrants choice) to another class. It sounds like they were moved here (per ISSCA rules), but there was NOT the communication to the entrant that needed to happen and thus the entrant CHOICE didn't happen. And I agree, that wasn't right.

It sounds like we need to clarify just HOW the entrant will be notified that they are being moved to a different class.
 
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Discussion Starter #9
First, let me start by saying I had a GREAT time at I2K2; let's see if we can exceed 300 entries next year. As far as the show classes, here's my 2-cents. When I realized I was going to be in the modified class with entries that have tons-of-chrome; I thought I was dead. But, I still put forth some effort, because I knew from previous shows with my previous ride (a show-winning '94 Chevy C-1500) that it's all about cleanliness. In the end, even though I have no chrome/polished goodies under the hood and only chrome rims on the outside, I missed a trophy by only 4 points! If I had only thought to borrow someone's sun visor (one of mine was missing & it cost me 5 points), I would have beaten John BADBOWTIE Rafteseth. As far as bumping people to other classes; I have to disagree with the current rules. If you happen to be the only one in your class, so what? I mean who's gonna remember next week that there were only 2 or 3 cars in your class? Oh well, I still had a great time. :D
 
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Discussion Starter #10
I agree with what everyone is saying.Car show from day one have usually had 1st 2nd and 3rd.Theres no crime if your the only one there.When ISSCA first started i had one of the founding members tell me in his own words one of the main goals of the club was to "have standardized judging".The car show rules have been changed 2 or 3 times and it still has me lost.The way i understand it,i have a 96 modifed,under 50,000 miles,if there is only 2 in that class you have to move down because theres no where else to go.It has close to 50 mods so when they get done deducting points for over the limit i will be minus points.Whats wrong with this picture :confused: I was told by larry that the main reason is "money" If you have all the classes advertised you have to have the trophys to back it up.If theres no one in a class theres 3 extra awards right there and i've never heard of a trophy shop taking them back(but they might).SO they have to be bought regardless.I couldn't make it to st.louis because of work but from what i've heard i'm glad i didn't.One question for anybody that judged or knows,did the same judges do the same class or did they get mixed as in I2K? That does NOT work.I learned the hard way on that one.Twice.This was not to "bash" any one person but theres a few on here that always say "take it up with your BOD" So here it is, people work there asses off on there cars.They should be rewarded for it,not stuck in other classes because theres not enough to make your class and find out after the awards.
 
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Discussion Starter #11
The problem here was there were classes with 3 or more cars that got combined anyway. NOT ONE of the participants were notified that they were getting moved. That is the problem that needs to be corrected.

Ed, I am too tired tonight to compose a letter, which I will forward to you, as you seem to be the only BOD member interested enough in this situation to respond. Will get it to you soon. I have no problem with the rules, the rules aren't the issue here. It is the fact that the rules changed as the show progressed and no one will offer an explanation. Where is Mr. Head Show Judge? Shouldn't he be the one concerned here? (No offense, Ed, but the one in charge should be the one taking the heat! I do thank you for your concern!!)

As I said in an earler post, all we want are straight forward answers, not some run around line of BS, which is what we seem to be getting.

As they say, "Its not who wins or loses, its how you played the game." If there is any truth in that phrase, the key players in this game really didn't play an honest and/or a fair game. Thats all anyone wanted or expected. Honesty and fairness. That isn't too much to ask, or is it?
 
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Discussion Starter #12
I would like to say THANK YOU to Jeff Ivins for contacting me. Jeff has also contacted Fred (who forwarded Jeff's e-mail to me) and answered many of our questions.

I appreciate the effort by Jeff to rectify the situation.

Thanks again.
 
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Discussion Starter #13
problem solved with plates... get little trophy plates, then award them out to those who won em, and give out the trophys to the classes who were big enough... but give the smaller classes the option to BUY a full trophy... problem solved... I mean hell the plates are all of like $2 to make, and I dont think they are even that much
 
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Discussion Starter #14
Interesting thread. Last year, I got into a heated discusion on this forum over show classes (had to do with paint mods, I won't go into that now). At the time, It had seemed to me that ISSCA was being somewhat bullheaded about some things. After talking with some people (Bill Harper, Ed Runnion) I caame to understand that this is a work in progress. I later got the chance to meet Larry Hall at the "HOTSS Cruise In" in Austin. Larry is a great guy that is doing his best to get these shows to a level that will be fair and consistant. Problems like what happened in St. Louis are gonna happen, but with your input, they will get fixed. I like the fact that this was brought up on this forum. It gives a lot of people, not just the ISSCA BOD, a chance to see what the problem was, and offer possible solutions that the ISSCA BOD can look at.

Having said that, I do have a question about mods. What did the judges count as mods? Stealth bolt? Aftermarket brake pads? Or did they only count mods that change the visual appearance of the car. Some of you have stated that you have 30-50 mods. I can't see how that is unless they are counting things that can't be seem anyway. Do they count billet pedals as 3 mods, or one? Just curious.
 
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Discussion Starter #15
I have absolutely no idea of what class I ws competeing in. I was down for 96 B-body, over 50k miles, mild street. For some reason, there was no category for this. I was not notified of any choice to bump up or down. We were there most of the day Saturday and they have a P.A. at the track (although it only works when there is electricity). Also, when I looked at the two judges sheets for my wife's car, they looked like they were for two different cars. That's how much difference in the points there was. If bumping is going to happen, it has to happen before ANY judging is done. Find out how many are registered and make up the classes. Also, those getting bumped MUST be notified as to their choice (so they know how many are in the classes above and below). Lastly, if cars are being dumped into on category, they all must be judged by the same team of judges. The same car could be judged by three different pair of judges and there would be a difference of 30 points between them.
Do you think this is a valid point? :confused:
 
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Discussion Starter #16
Other than the possible reclassification based on car numbers at I2K2.

The only issue I really have with the ISSCA
classes is the mileage breaks. My 94 has 175K on the clock and it has road rash from that many miles. I would presume that I was one of the 94's that got bumped from 94 Modified over 50K to whatever combined class there is.
If you wanted to look at the average miles driven when considering vehicle values, let's use 12-15K a year for arguments sake.
Your average 94 will have between 96 & 120 K on the clock, your 95 will have between 84 & 105K and your 96 will have between 72 & 90 K on the clock.
To me the Over/Under 50K need to be adjusted
to reflect the average car.
I know the though process where "a clean car is a clean car" BUT if you take a car with 40K on it and clean it and have the same guy clean a car with 140K on it, are the cars equal? I don't think so.

I'm still waiting to see the I2K2 results and see where my car was put.
 
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Discussion Starter #17
Good day to all. This was my first National event and I was one of the guys that so called got "screwed" (1 96 stock over 50K (me) & 10 96 stock under 50K). I don't feel that I did because I had a blast and I know it takes tons of work to pull a show off as GRAIL did (well worth attending). However, IMO I have to agree with stomper, the shows already have classes which were established by ISSCA, so the trophies have to be bought for those certain classes. If there is only one or two cars in that class that work their fingers to the bone cleaning, and spending time and money getting there, why not give them the trophies that you have already purchased. When the awards were over at I2K2 there were still trophies on the table. You're not creating a class that wasn't already there, you are rewarding participants that are there in the proper class that was established by ISCCA. This would solve the problem of having to go find the person and asking them what class they would like to compete in, which we know takes time and personnel. Even if you were to ask a person, how many of us would really like to move up or down? Members would be upset because they have to take point deductions to come down, or not think it was very fair to compete with members that have more mods. Therefore, I believe the easiest solution would be to keep the classes that the ISSCA BOD created and award trophies for those classes regardless of how many participants are in that class. JUST MY 2 CENTS.
 
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Discussion Starter #18
the same thing happened to me in street class above 50,000 miles. there weren't enough cars to give out 3 trophies but too many to bump (i think) so they gave out 1 trophy. oh well, i didn't care anyway, because after st. louis i think i'll stick to drivin' for myself and not worry so much about cleanin' for somebody else. ;)
 
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Discussion Starter #19
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Karen:
Ed, I am too tired tonight to compose a letter, which I will forward to you, as you seem to be the only BOD member interested enough in this situation to respond<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Karen,

Most of the other board members lurk here, we just like Ed to do the tough work and take all the heat. :D

Thanks for offering to take the time to give us some written feedback. This always helps!

-Gerry ( also an ISSCA board member )
 
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Discussion Starter #20
Gerry,

Thank you for the email and for setting me straight!

-Karen
 
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