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Marky Dissod, You're probably right, it would probably feel fine driving around town with a 3.23. While I do prioritize highway cruising RPM over E/T for sure, the E/T still isn't completely meaningless to me. I'm willing to trade 2 or 3 tenths for better cruisability but I think giving up a half second or more would be where I draw the line. unfortunately, no way of knowing how much E/T i'd give up dropping to that low of a gear which is why I'm a little worried about going that low when I know 3.73 is optimal. First step is going to be get some baseline E/T's from the car this coming season, then I can better decide how much i'm willing to give up.

With a 3.42/26" tire/.75 OD the car would cruise something like [email protected] That's totally doable and the car feels fine at those RPM's, but I think it's just more for peace of mind for me not having in the back of my head that the engine is working harder than it has to when cruising it 2 or 3 hours down an interstate on a road trip to the track/car show/Nationals. Also being spoiled by newer cars with 6/8 speeds doing [email protected] LOL



Jack R, most CTSV guys I have seen making the kind of power i'm making E/T the best by 'gearing out' the first gear and launching in 2nd. The 4.03 is useless on the track in any car making any power, but launching with a 2.36 first in a 4400lb car, even with 700+HP, isn't ideal either...not with a 2.9x rear anyway. When you look at what CTSV guys do, they basically just treat the 6 speed like a 3 speed only using 2nd, 3rd and 4th and the optimize gearing the same away anyone would with a 3 or 4 speed would, by looking at RPM's across the traps. The great benefit to the 6 speed though is if you WEREN'T looking to perfectly optimize gearing for E/T, you can get away with a very low 2.9x or 3.0x rear gear because you have such a steep first gear and less drop off between gears. Something that wouldn't feel too great in an impala with a 4 speed, I don't care how much power you have (unless that power is being made with a diesel engine 632cid big block).

You will not need a wider tire than a 255 at 27"-28" tall if you deleverage the final drive ratio
Yea, I have to fully disagree with that. I've been around a lot of fast street cars, how many do you see running 10's on 255 D/R's? Not that it can't be done, but if it's getting done it has far more to do with chassis/suspension than deleveraging the final drive ratio and that's going to be near impossible with 700hp in a chassis not set up for drag racing (no anti roll bar, no adj parallel 4 link etc...)

I would say you're onto something for a big power street car racing on the street where races are usually won by the car that gets something vaguely resembling traction quicker. On a prepped track though, I have no desire to slow down the car's potential to accelerate. I'm just likely going to need a much more aggressive compound to get the car to hook up.



Wider tires with more contact patch and taller sidewalls with more give are god's gift to big power cars with poorly set up (for drag racing) chassis setups. Back in the early 00's I was a kid working in a speed shop and my friend/mentor/boss would run 8.60's with the shop car, a 468 BBC 69 camaro and a whole lot of nitrous ON LEAF SPRINGS. no ladder bar, no 4 link, no anti roll bar, but it would carry the front wheels off the ground and put most of the fancy pro street cars at the time to shame. Stock chassis with subframe connectors. Most people wouldn't believe it when you told them, until they saw the car and realized it was a really just a tire with a side of car.
 

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With 3.42 / 26" tire / .75 OD the car would cruise something like 2650RpM @ 80MpH.
That's totally doable and the car feels fine at those RpMs, but I think it's just more for peace of mind for me not having in the back of my head that the engine is working harder than it has to when cruising it 2 or 3 hours down an interstate on a road trip to the track/car show / Nationals.
Also being spoiled by newer cars with 6 / 8 speeds doing 2100RpM @ 80MpH.
Were I lucky enough to be in your situation - 3.42 * 0.75 / 29.1" tire = 89MpH @ 2650RpM - I'd just go with a taller tire ... but you know more about whether or not that's workable.
(I'd trust a 6L90E from a LGH DuraMax van before any 8L80, but that's just me.)
And yes, a 6L90E would spoil you, but it makes sense to avoid all the ancillary hassles.
 

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The Toyos really aren't the greatest drag radial out there, they aren't anywhere near as aggressive of a compound as an ET-R or Hoosier DOT but they are way more streetable. They actually feel great cruising, on the highway, even in corners surprisingly.
I run the Toyo R888R's myself. Even though they're listed as "track only" and have a UTQ 100 treadwear rating, they work just fine on my daily driver. I've put over 10,000 miles on them and they still have plenty of tread left. I'll probably get 20,000 out of them easy. They launch even better than the Nitto NT05R drag radials I had on it before, and since they're track tires instead of just drag radials, they make the car handle CRISP in the twisties.

Daily driver: 2007 C6 corvette, 418 ci block, Frankenstein heads and cam, Vortech T-trim blower. 6.5 lbs boost. 650-ish rwhp, 10.2 @ 131mph in the quarter on slicks. 10.6 @ 128mph on the Toyos.
 

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So I have read recently. I had just seen someone install one of these and he enjoyed it but I know a few have issues.

Sucks our trans tunnel doesn't fit the 6L80. I don't wanna cut my Impala up too much either
 

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Mike harris is in the deep 10s with a 4l60e
Don't doubt that there aren't 60e's that COULD hold up to the power I'm making, I just have no desire to continue swapping them out twice a season trying to find out. I've already tried two of the best known builders, and the other one I know of is nearly double the price of most others.

One thing I think is important to note to is there IS a difference between hard street miles and drag strip miles. As much stress as a hard launch puts on parts, smooth, consistent power delivery on a car like Mike's that hooks up and goes I actually think, from my experiences, is less likely to kill a 60e than what you'd see happening on a street car like mine. WOT downshifts, insanely high wheel speeds spinning through gears then suddenly and violently hooking up when the DR's heat up etc... I wonder if this attacks some of the 60e's weak spots more than a smooth 1-2-3 upshift on the drag strip.

Also a lot more room for human error with how many modifications are usually made to hold up to that type of power. Wont get into the problems there as it would be a long story between the 4 transmissions I went through in 2 seasons but I'll just put this this way....if I have a choice between something that can handle X amount of power with minimal changes made to the factory engineered design and minimal aftermarket parts used, I'd take that any day over something that requires everything to replaced and extensive changes made.

Jeff Green's car uses a 60e with 1500hp, so it can be done...but just how much $$$ is that .7 OD worth LOL
 

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I run the Toyo R888R's myself. Even though they're listed as "track only" and have a UTQ 100 treadwear rating, they work just fine on my daily driver. I've put over 10,000 miles on them and they still have plenty of tread left. I'll probably get 20,000 out of them easy. They launch even better than the Nitto NT05R drag radials I had on it before, and since they're track tires instead of just drag radials, they make the car handle CRISP in the twisties.

Daily driver: 2007 C6 corvette, 418 ci block, Frankenstein heads and cam, Vortech T-trim blower. 6.5 lbs boost. 650-ish rwhp, 10.2 @ 131mph in the quarter on slicks. 10.6 @ 128mph on the Toyos.
I love 888r's. The Toyo TQ's I have actually use the same compound, just the softer sidewall. Only issue is the 888r's aren't made in anything bigger than a 315 which has even a shorter sidewall than the 335/35/17 pilot sports I run for my 'cruising' setup so I'd rather stick to the pilot sports for that setup, and I don't think the 315 888r is going to hook better than the TQ 345. If they made one in a 345/40/17 or even 335/35/17 I would definitely be using it instead, as it's a great all around performer.

That sounds like a beast of a vette! I will say though, those C6's are very well hooking cars. Weight transfer is near perfect on them, they work very well at the drag strip. Looking forward to seeing how these TQ's work on a prepped track on the Impala this season, hopefully a lot better than street/no prep. a 4 tenths difference slicks vs street tires is really impressive, especially for a tire as well rounded as a 888r.
 
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Jeff Green's car uses a 60e with 1500hp, so it can be done ... but just how much $$$ is that .7 OD worth?
Ask Rossler Transmissions.
 
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1.) 6L80 or 6L90 would not be so easy to live with at launch, with a 4.06 first gear and 3.73 in the differential? Smoking is bad for you.

2.) A truly built 4L60 ( he did blow up two "built" ones) still needs a more highway friendly rear differential gear.
The 4L60 first gear of 3.06 and a 27-28" tire? I wish you had the OEM SS 3.08 diff just lying around. I'd bet you'd love it on the highway.
ET? That's a lot of power you got there and it's only first and second that's really going to make or break the ET.
By "built", I mean "very built" LOL. A Cahall ultra pro race and two Performabilt level 3's. you can look them up if you'd like to see what goes into them, mods lists a mile long and $4000 give or take price tags. FWIW both companies were great to work with, both companies stood behind their stuff and they have transmissions working in cars with similar power to mine, I won't bash them at all.

What I learned is a lot of guys talk about people making big power with a 60e but few of them actually run one themselves. I ran an FLP 60e behind a 550whp procharged setup in a 3800lb car and never had an issue but this setup is a lot more power, a lot heavier and the power comes on a lot more violently than a procharger. they CAN be built to do it, much in the way an LT1 can be built to make 900hp, but there's a lot more room for error versus trying to make 900hp with a 6.2 Red Eye motor that just requires some bolt ons and a tune. Having confidence in the setup/not having to pull transmissions out for inspections or rebuilds within the next few years is more important to me than the .7OD.


As far as the deleveraging, that Camaro I posted ran a 5.13 rear. There was no 'deleveraging' going on, the steep gears were there to offset the tall tire. Plain and simple, you gear a car to cross the traps at your ideal RPM (usually somewhere ABOVE peak power, but for most street cars in the ballpark is just fine). Deleveraging by dropping the rear gear to something that puts you well below peak power crossing the traps, in most cases, will slow the car down. If the car is spinning, and killing E/T, then the focus needs to turn to the tire/chassis/suspension setup. Deleveraging through shallower rear gears is no different than pulling power from the car, it's a band aid that works to help the car hook but it's doing it by slowing down the potential of the car. When all else fails, it's what you do, but the chassis should be right first.

E/T wise, 3.73 IS the ideal gear for this car, I can guarantee you it will E/T best with that on a good tire. Just not the best gear for highway cruising when I'm forced to run a 26" tall tire (well not forced, but the best options are 26"). Also makes hooking on street tires on unprepped streets difficult, but that has never really been a concern of mine.


I know my issue is mainly the tire. I don't know of many people even trying to put down the power I am with the Toyos I'm running. they're a great tire, but most guys making 600+RWHP and expecting the car to hook on the street are running ET-R's. Since I don't really care about winning street races, I want to see what they can do on a prepped track this season before I switch to an ET-R or Hoosier DOT.

Even with the power i'm making, I doubt I would be hitting my E/T goals with a 3.08 rear, although it would be great on the highway.

FWIW too, you'll find many 6l80/6l90 guys swapping out for 4l80e's and going faster than they did with the 6 speeds. The gear ratios are just much more friendly for optimizing for 1/4 mile. Like anything else, guys obviously get the 6l80/90's to work, but I wouldn't say they have any advantage on the drag track. 8 speed? another story, much better gear spread for a 2nd gear start in the 1/4. 6 speed was mostly designed for better fuel economy, better part throttle drivability etc.. the benefits are also there on the road course but not so much drag track being most end up using only 3 of the forward gears anyway, with less ideal ratios vs a 4l80e.
 
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So it had the thinnest frame of any B body, so the lightest frame.

For anyone else wondering
The information in print out there ,

1996 B19 = one frame
Parts books from the day listed one part number.

Font Rectangle Pattern Circle Parallel


When measured in areas un stretched by the stamping process some of us could not find the reported differences.

Any one EVER find a different part number for a 1996 B4U , WX3 or 9C1 ?

Sighting a 9C1 brochure " Heavy Duty Full Perimeter Frame " does not mean it was different.
 

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For anyone else wondering
The information in print out there ,

1996 B19 = one frame
Parts books from the day listed one part number.

View attachment 208365

When measured in areas un stretched by the stamping process some of us could not find the reported differences.

Any one EVER find a different part number for a 1996 B4U , WX3 or 9C1 ?

Sighting a 9C1 brochure " Heavy Duty Full Perimeter Frame " does not mean it was different.
Hi Gerry, I no longer see the nonsense from the person you quoted, so I am not sure I fully understand the context of your interesting post.
I think I know what you are saying, and I had always heard; that the Impala frame was made from a thicker gauge metal than a Caprice frame. I think you are saying: there are no printed materials that substantiate a second/different version (or "thicker") frame existing?
With my background in manufacturing as a tool and die maker and later a m.e. in the automotive industry, the idea of a penny-pinching automotive manufacturer forming and welding two identical frames out of two very similar thickness gauge metals never quite made sense to me (because it would have been more cost effective to brace, box, gusset, or otherwise massage the existing frame where the extra strength was needed), but I never questioned it, as it was always spoken as "fact".
I am not arguing either side, because I have no idea, and I certainly have never measured any frames myself. However, can you please confirm I understand your post: you find no printed evidence by part number or otherwise that the Impala frame is any different thickness from the Caprice frame (of the same year)?
Intriguing post, no matter what the answer is (y)
 

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Hi Gerry, I no longer see the nonsense from the person you quoted, so I am not sure I fully understand the context of your interesting post.
Are you just mentally not seeing that person's nonsense or is there a way to block those nonsense posts from showing? I think many members would like to know. Might even warrant a Stickie.
 

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Are you just mentally not seeing that person's nonsense or is there a way to block those nonsense posts from showing? I think many members would like to know. Might even warrant a Stickie.
Strange enough, that very person taught me about this forum feature: If you click on my screen name (or any other); you can click "Follow" or "Ignore", or "Start Conversation".
When you click on "Ignore", you no longer see what that particular forum member posts. (y)
 

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Are you just mentally not seeing that person's nonsense or is there a way to block those nonsense posts from showing? I think many members would like to know. Might even warrant a Stickie.
Mouse over a user's name/picture, click the 3 vertical dots, select "Ignore" and posts from that user just don't exist for you anymore.

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Too bad Bill Shope's website crashed. He was a suspension engineer for Chrysler and was an original member of the Ram Chargers drag racing team back in the 60's. His website had a lot of good theory level info about what Dick was talking about.
 

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Strange enough, that very person taught me about this forum feature: If you click on my screen name (or any other); you can click "Follow" or "Ignore", or "Start Conversation".
When you click on "Ignore", you no longer see what that particular forum member posts. (y)
Mouse over a user's name/picture, click the 3 vertical dots, select "Ignore" and posts from that user just don't exist for you anymore.
Many Many thanks guys!!! I was starting to lose interest in logging on. This should be the right pill.
 

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from Navy Lifer (possibly from before you were born)
FRAME THICKNESS OEM
Civilian Caprice, base model 0.100"
Roadmaster Sedan 0.110"
Impala SS, Caprice SS,
9C1 and all wagons 0.125
And yet one part number for 96 for the above cars . ( I single out 96 because you used a 96 in your story )
Your quoting does not change I find only one part number and the frames I personally measured were close enough to discount as error- flashing etc.
Real evidence I will except and amend my statements.
Charts with part numbers will do , thanks.

Navylifer is he some sort of B body expert?
Not sure I have ever heard of him.

" before you were born" so now my young age changes my expereance ?
 

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