[Ratmaster]

Ok want to start off by saying that I'm not new to lt1s or bbodys. I've had 4 low mileage (under 50k mile) bbodys and I also have a lt1 bird that has some mild modifications. So I am seriously interested in what this takes. I am graduating college in may and when I get a job I would love to start piecing this together. It has been my dream car for about 5 years. I still have a lot to learn and appreciate any insight you guys may have.

I have read all I could find on this subject but nothing is conclusive. I know a company called mease performance engineering offered a kit that I believed used a jag blower. They no longer offer this from what I can gather. I have also been following the cornel tech whipple build.

So my question is what would it really take to get a big liquid cooled kenne bell on a bbody. From what I've read the intake manifold is the number one issue. Where would I even begin to find someone who could design and build an efficient manifold with the proper fitment in a bbody? How much would a custom made manifold cost cutting no corners?

Am I correct in assuming space is not a big issue on the b platform? Any insight is greatly appreciated!

This would be a long way off as I would plan to build the rear, 4l60e, suspension, and a forged 383 or 355 running an ls1 PCM to put the kb twin screw on. I also would be looking for another perfect, low mileage roadmaster tow pack to do this to. I can think of no better show/street/strip car than a roadmaster with under 30k miles that looks bone stock inside and out... White wall tires and all. Then leave the hood open for all to see the sneaky twin screw Buick. Ideally there would be two drag rims and tires mounted in the trunk (two lane black top style) and the quietest performance mufflers I could find with electronic dumps.

The instant torque would be beautiful in such a heavy car. Please no one say don't bother. I know twin turbos would make more power and a pro charger would be easier. I'm thinking outside the box and it's not supposed to be a race car.

 

[Ratmaster]

I did a search using this sites search feature and have seen that one member has bought a kenne bell setup from mease. Could you please tell me all you are willing to divulge on this subject and your build. Is the kenne bell liquid cooled? With all the space in our cars I find it's hard to believe an intercooler would be an issue. I've seen an intercooler setup on a pro charged impala.

Also I'm guessing the height of the kb would not clear a stock hood but I wonder by how many inches.

 

[Bigdawg70]

There are a few mease setup around but they wont be cheap. There was a guy on another site building a intake for it looks real nice but has yet to finish the project. If you put a wtb in for sale section you may get sum response from those guys. Goodluck Just remeber it wont be cheap.

 

[Ratmaster]

I think there are only 4 mease setups out there. I believe there is also an additional kb setup that is on a members impala that was put together by mease. I think the other guy you are referring to is cornel who is putting a whipple on his lt1 FBody. I havnt seen a whipple on a bbody and the only twinscrew setup I have seen was the mease kenne bell. I've also seen a wagon with a Weiand and an awful set of rims/paint but I want to go ls1 brained fuel injection not carbed. I also don't want to do a roots blower (eaton) lol. If I'm going to invest the money I want what I want and that would be a liquid cooled kenne bell with all the heat soak prevention I can garner.

 

[Jeff Green]

It's going to be a one off so either you have to be willing, and knowledgable, to make it happen yourself or finding the right person could be hard and as already said, expensive!!

But you would have a very cool car, one of a kind and thats worth something. I see no reason it couldn't be done for what you want. The intercooling is key so I see you saying the "big intercooler" in several of your responses. Do not let someone talk you out of that and don't go with a system/setup that doesn't have it.

Put it in the "Full Build" section and start your project. We need more cool cars.

 

[Ratmaster]

I'm surprised no one has anything to say on this subject. I've been using the resources this community has to offer since I bought my first bbody in 2007 (a beautiful 95 one owner, tan color, roadmaster from Georgia with 23k miles) and put a 373 set and an eaton posi in it. This is the first time in 6 years that I have deemed it necessary to post for information on this site. Everything else has been easily found through search.

The more I look at the pics of the twin screw setups the more it looks like the cowl may have to be cut. Ideally I'd rather drop the motor down lower than use an aftermarket hood or cut my cowl.

Let me just reiterate that I am seriously interested in finding out what this project entails. I had considered a cobra as my self graduation present but after 3 years modding and hardly ever driving my low miles lt1 bird I have come to the realization that I do not like small cars (well I like looking at them but not driving them). Not to mention that cobras are very plain Jane.... Most people have to ask me what my roadmasters are, although people only seem interested in the yacht after it drifts into the college parking lot lol. So I figure a nice cobra would have run 18k and the kenne bell..... Well you know about that haha. So I figure 5k tops for a tow pack car with under 30k miles leaves 13k in mods before we get to the price of a stock cobra.

This is a car I would keep forever so I am fine with it costing the same as what I would put into a cobra or an FBody if I built them. There is just no competitor to the bbody....Marauders are way to costly in nice shape for something that everyone is going to mistake for a regular Vic or Marquis. How many bbodys do you see daily vs. Panther cars? The old ls6/ls2 V's are nice (parents had an 05 ls6 from 06-08) but they are still to small width wise. Same goes for the G8. I love how wide our cars are more than anything. Pickup truck width without the jacked up ride height. My rents now have an 09 V and idk it just doesn't do it for me. I thought the ls6 was so much more raw and fun. I guess the ls6 felt more like something you'd build in your garage where as the lsa feels like the BMW 550 we drove with more power. The lsa is an automatic though and I've never been in a stick shift one so that may account for a lot of the differences. Still I'd take a roady with a set of 373s over that car (I'm crazy right?). My stance is everyone makes BMW's these days but no one makes a big fast American style car (I don't want a Mercedes srt8 either haha although the new charger may be the best looking car since the bbodys)

Don't make me start looking at forging a marauder and putting a kenne bell on it guys That would cost a real fortune.

 

[LeadSSled]

I'm surprised no one has anything to say on this subject.

I think that this is the result of so very few people having done this to a B-body. I think that there were only 4 done by Keith Mease. One of those was Gene Zebley (Boilermaker on here). He ultimately sold that setup to someone else (I don't know who)and Gene went with twin-turbos instead. Gene's was the only one of the Mease setup that I've even put my eyes on.

Watching this thread with interest. Good luck with your project. Document it well so the next guy can find the stuff that you are looking for.

 

[350]

Seems like it might almost be easier to swap to LSx since there's a ton of blowers made for them. You could pick up an iron 5.3 or 6.0 dirt cheap and all the conversion parts are available now since it's been done enough times. It should also be easier to tune.

 

[Ratmaster]

Thanks Jeff! I will be doing this right so don't expect to even see a car until the end of the summer lol. Over the past 6 years I've had 4 b/d body's and they all had under 30k on the clock. I had to travel all over the country to find them but I also made money on each one when I sold them. Living in MA people are shocked to see a low miles rust free 20 year old rust free sedan. So it will take me a while to even find the right car to dod this to. I've been thinking 9c1 (I guess chevy made to many and had to sell them to the public. Every once in a great while a low mile, original private owner 9c1 pops up on autotrader) or tow pack caprice because they have the least weight and the rear wheel wells will make fitting big rubber a lot easier than on a roady/fleety. I'd take just about any fleetwood (tow pack with the 342s stock preferred haha) but they are harder to come by... Especially at a low price. Wish I had the Calypso green 31k mile fleety I got in 08 still ):
The roadmaster though for some reason beckons to me.... Not sure why... I thought they were the ugliest car before I bought my first one because I couldn't afford an impala. Now I think they look down right evil (especially in red or black) and I love that nobody knows what they are. The only problem with the roady is that unless it's a tow pack you get the smaller (7.5? If I remember right) axel and one of the MUSTS on this build is using the original block, tranny case, and rear end housing. All internals will certainly be replaced with nothing but the best.
So that's the catch in finding the right car;
Fleetwood: All have the big axel and lt1 but there were much fewer made and thus are hard to find at a good price
Caprice: Tow pack needed for the lt1 and larger axel. Plenty of low miles non lt1 cars floating around but lt1s are a tough find.
Roadmaster: Tow pack needed for the axel. It's pretty easy to find a low mile roadmaster but I've seen very few tow pack cars.

Then I also have to like the cars color combo and no heated seats (they arnt as comfy as the non heated ones. Boy I'm picky huh?). Also only the fleetwood can have a vynil top haha.

As for the cooling fear not intercoolers and heat exchangers ohh my

I think I will wait on moving this to the build thread until I have bought my project car. At which point the build will start slow. Rear end: moser half shafts, Detroit locker, 3.73s or 342s? Then a dennys driveshaft with loop? Then a full exhaust from the tri-ys, to the electric cutouts, to the quietest mufflers I can find that still flow well enough. Widen some stock rims for street driving and have some bogart street and strip rims with proper tires mounted in the trunk. Then the 4l60 gets built to the hilt with some sort of stall.... Depends on how big the cam goes but I'm guessing Ill keep a very mild cam with the KB. Then the suspension (this would be hardest to decide on because while I want to get most of the power to the ground i do not want to feel like I'm driving a luxury cement truck). Then finally the motor. Again this will take a lot more thinking when the time finally comes but I'm thinking maybe just a bomb proof 355 small cam running ls1 PCM and individual coil packs (so I could talk the local lsx guru, slowhawk, into dyno tuning it), upgrade the oiling, fuel, and cooling systems... I don't think I'll need the extra cubes with the twin screw (you don't see anyone stroking 4.6 cobras anyways lol but that may be more to do with the 4.6 itself and not the blower but I don't know either way) And of course the biggest liquid cooled Kenne bell I can fit.

Like I said this isn't going to be a race car at all. Although I do go up to Epping a few times a year and would certainly run it. This is more of the ultimate street sleeper build for both amazing street performance and taking it to car shows. With a twin screw the seat of your pants acceleration would be there haha. Ideally the only exterior cue that the car was modified should be the tinted windows, widened stock rims, some proper exhaust pipes, and maybe some real quick cats may spot some suspension work.

Jeff when you say it's going to be real expensive I'm perplexed. I know this is expensive as I have listed above my plans. To me though this would be fairly inexpensive relative to doing the same job on an FBody. The only real custom work needed, that i can think of, is for an intake manifold, I believe. I am sure the intercooler/heat exchanger shouldn't be to big of a problem considering all of the room. I am in no way saying that you are wrong. There are obviously reasons why this has not been discussed much before. Am I not fully realizing something here? I feel like I must be since the Mease kits never took off

 

[Ratmaster]

350- I want to keep the block, transmission case and rear end housing stock and just build the internals. I understand it would be much smarter to go with an lsx and believe me it is my biggest grudge against GM that the bbodys never received an lsx. Damn escalades, bbody murderers. But it would also be much smarter to do a twin turbo setup haha. The point of this build is to build what I want. Not to build what I should build lol

Leadssled- I will document it I will be very proud to shown anyone how it was done in the future

 

[Jeff Green]

Thanks Jeff! I will be doing this right so don't expect to even see a car until the end of the summer lol. Over the past 6 years I've had 4 b/d body's and they all had under 30k on the clock. I had to travel all over the country to find them but I also made money on each one when I sold them. Living in MA people are shocked to see a low miles rust free 20 year old rust free sedan. So it will take me a while to even find the right car to dod this to. I've been thinking 9c1 (I guess chevy made to many and had to sell them to the public. Every once in a great while a low mile, original private owner 9c1 pops up on autotrader) or tow pack caprice because they have the least weight and the rear wheel wells will make fitting big rubber a lot easier than on a roady/fleety. I'd take just about any fleetwood (tow pack with the 342s stock preferred haha) but they are harder to come by... Especially at a low price. Wish I had the Calypso green 31k mile fleety I got in 08 still ):
The roadmaster though for some reason beckons to me.... Not sure why... I thought they were the ugliest car before I bought my first one because I couldn't afford an impala. Now I think they look down right evil (especially in red or black) and I love that nobody knows what they are. The only problem with the roady is that unless it's a tow pack you get the smaller (7.5? If I remember right) axel and one of the MUSTS on this build is using the original block, tranny case, and rear end housing. All internals will certainly be replaced with nothing but the best.
So that's the catch in finding the right car;
Fleetwood: All have the big axel and lt1 but there were much fewer made and thus are hard to find at a good price
Caprice: Tow pack needed for the lt1 and larger axel. Plenty of low miles non lt1 cars floating around but lt1s are a tough find.
Roadmaster: Tow pack needed for the axel. It's pretty easy to find a low mile roadmaster but I've seen very few tow pack cars.

Then I also have to like the cars color combo and no heated seats (they arnt as comfy as the non heated ones. Boy I'm picky huh?). Also only the fleetwood can have a vynil top haha.

As for the cooling fear not intercoolers and heat exchangers ohh my

I think I will wait on moving this to the build thread until I have bought my project car. At which point the build will start slow. Rear end: moser half shafts, Detroit locker, 3.73s or 342s? Then a dennys driveshaft with loop? Then a full exhaust from the tri-ys, to the electric cutouts, to the quietest mufflers I can find that still flow well enough. Widen some stock rims for street driving and have some bogart street and strip rims with proper tires mounted in the trunk. Then the 4l60 gets built to the hilt with some sort of stall.... Depends on how big the cam goes but I'm guessing Ill keep a very mild cam with the KB. Then the suspension (this would be hardest to decide on because while I want to get most of the power to the ground i do not want to feel like I'm driving a luxury cement truck). Then finally the motor. Again this will take a lot more thinking when the time finally comes but I'm thinking maybe just a bomb proof 355 small cam running ls1 PCM and individual coil packs (so I could talk the local lsx guru, slowhawk, into dyno tuning it), upgrade the oiling, fuel, and cooling systems... I don't think I'll need the extra cubes with the twin screw (you don't see anyone stroking 4.6 cobras anyways lol but that may be more to do with the 4.6 itself and not the blower but I don't know either way) And of course the biggest liquid cooled Kenne bell I can fit.

Like I said this isn't going to be a race car at all. Although I do go up to Epping a few times a year and would certainly run it. This is more of the ultimate street sleeper build for both amazing street performance and taking it to car shows. With a twin screw the seat of your pants acceleration would be there haha. Ideally the only exterior cue that the car was modified should be the tinted windows, widened stock rims, some proper exhaust pipes, and maybe some real quick cats may spot some suspension work.

Jeff when you say it's going to be real expensive I'm perplexed. I know this is expensive as I have listed above my plans. To me though this would be fairly inexpensive relative to doing the same job on an FBody. The only real custom work needed, that i can think of, is for an intake manifold, I believe. I am sure the intercooler/heat exchanger shouldn't be to big of a problem considering all of the room. I am in no way saying that you are wrong. There are obviously reasons why this has not been discussed much before. Am I not fully realizing something here? I feel like I must be since the Mease kits never took off

It's all that little stuff that adds up. When you build something that no one has done it's going to work out that way. The intake is one problem but what about the pulley system to run it? You have to be careful that you don't make something that they don't make a belt that size/length. What about the MAS? You shouldn't go SD but if you want to really move some air then you're going to max out any MAF you can find. You already figured out about the hood as you put any kind of cooler under it and it's out your hood. It just keeps going on, all kinds of little details but thats ok and part of doing something like this.

I'm nt trying to talk you out of this but just answering the question you asked me. I have a similar type engine that uses a Novi 2000 supercharger that no one ever made a kit for our cars. So yes, I'm a one off guy and know what all I have run into to make it work. And it's not a race car so you need to know you can leave everything in it and run as fast as a race car if you make enough power. So you can have it all.

It's clear you want to do this so ignor what others say and just do it!!

 

[Bigdawg70]

Info is small because it hasnt really been done. You will basicallly the guinea pig. Most people arent willing or cant afford to try a build and not be successful. I am in now way trying to discourage you. But your moving into no mans zone. If cornel would ever finish and find a way to mass produce that would be great. But reality is LS motor are here and not many companies are willing to drop money on R&D. If you hhave sum great fabricators on your side you will be ahead of most. I believe starting off with a stock intake and working from there would be interesting but hood clearance might be a issue. A watercooled intercooler would be nice but not sure how practical.

 

[Ratmaster]

Thanks guys! I know this will be expensive but relatively speaking, for a build of this nature, it seems like the overall cost would be less.... since our cars are so cheap to begin with it.


Anywhooooo, cost aside, haha where can I find out more about your build Jeff? Oh and don't worry about talking me out of it , I'm too thick headed for any reasonable strategy. The only other car I'd consider building up would be a 71-75 coupe deville (472 or 500 lol) but I am no where near as emotionally invested as I am with the lt1 bbodys haha.

All kidding aside though I appreciate you leveling with me. I need all of that that I can find. At least I'll have plenty of time and and things to tinker with on the car before I ever start looking to actually mount the KB. So there is plenty of time for further research.

Ok so here's the million dollar question. Who do I look to as far as fabrication goes? I know I'll never be able to accomplish that task needless to say. Does anyone think the likes of kenne bell would work with me in fabricating an intake manifold? I feel like that is a stupid question and the answer is almost certainly no, but for the right amount of money I'm sure they would. However, there would be a breaking point where it just would not be worth it for me. I'm not going to spend 10k on just an intake manifold for example.

As far as the MAF is concerned what kind of HP can I safely make without exceeding the MAF's capacity? I know the FBody MAF's are bigger. I really don't need it to be OR run like a race car either... Although I want it to be as fast as possible, very reliably, while maintaining all the things I want from this build (KB and the original block and drivetrain components) I'm fine with a reasonable amount of boost, just the kb, from what I've read, is much more efficient at making the power and if the blower doesn't work as hard I am assuming less heat? I do not want to do this if I am going to be constantly waiting for the thing to cool down. So yes this will be expensive! Consistency + Reliability + Fast + Never been done before = $$$$$ right???? Haha

Jeff when the time gets closer expect me to be chewing your ear off buddy

 

[strokedimpala]

blower

What about a Hogan sheet metal manifold I am sure they could make something to work with the Kenne bell.I know it wouldn't be cheap but shouldn't be $10000.
Paul.

 

[JetJoe]

The reason nobody talks about mease is because he was a thief that took peoples money and never delivered anything as promised unless you stood there and watched him. Your best bet is to wait for the cornel product to become available or build one yourself.

 

[Ratmaster]

Tell me more about this Hogan sheet metal. I've never heard anything like that before but I will investigate all leads. What would a reasonable estimate be on something like this?

Hadn't heard he was a thief haha but I believe it. Seems that is the way most people in this industry are.

JetJoe- I do not have a machine shop let alone the ability if I had to fabricate something like this. If I'm the first that is ok but I will NEED the (paid) help of a professional to accomplish my goals.


Thanks for the interest and responses guys!

 

[strokedimpala]

hogan

Check out Hogan or similar sheet metal intake makers.I know they make it for LT1.
Paul.

 

[LeadSSled]

Results of an 8-second Google search:
http://www.hogansracingmanifolds.com/

 

[Jeff Green]

Thanks guys! I know this will be expensive but relatively speaking, for a build of this nature, it seems like the overall cost would be less.... since our cars are so cheap to begin with it.


Anywhooooo, cost aside, haha where can I find out more about your build Jeff? Oh and don't worry about talking me out of it , I'm too thick headed for any reasonable strategy. The only other car I'd consider building up would be a 71-75 coupe deville (472 or 500 lol) but I am no where near as emotionally invested as I am with the lt1 bbodys haha.

All kidding aside though I appreciate you leveling with me. I need all of that that I can find. At least I'll have plenty of time and and things to tinker with on the car before I ever start looking to actually mount the KB. So there is plenty of time for further research.

Ok so here's the million dollar question. Who do I look to as far as fabrication goes? I know I'll never be able to accomplish that task needless to say. Does anyone think the likes of kenne bell would work with me in fabricating an intake manifold? I feel like that is a stupid question and the answer is almost certainly no, but for the right amount of money I'm sure they would. However, there would be a breaking point where it just would not be worth it for me. I'm not going to spend 10k on just an intake manifold for example.

As far as the MAF is concerned what kind of HP can I safely make without exceeding the MAF's capacity? I know the FBody MAF's are bigger. I really don't need it to be OR run like a race car either... Although I want it to be as fast as possible, very reliably, while maintaining all the things I want from this build (KB and the original block and drivetrain components) I'm fine with a reasonable amount of boost, just the kb, from what I've read, is much more efficient at making the power and if the blower doesn't work as hard I am assuming less heat? I do not want to do this if I am going to be constantly waiting for the thing to cool down. So yes this will be expensive! Consistency + Reliability + Fast + Never been done before = $$$$$ right???? Haha

Jeff when the time gets closer expect me to be chewing your ear off buddy

Sorry but I'm not big on having a site about my car and stuff like that. The ET page will give you the basics and just think of a stock Impala but with the engine able to make large power. Thats what it is so unless you look at pictures under the car, the pictures of the car just look like a stock Impala. It draws no attention and thats what its made to do.

Yes, I fab stuff as you can't have a car like this unless you can or willing to pay someone to. If I can make Aluminum blocks then I think I could fab a blower on one of our intakes using it as a starting point. I'm not a shop, I just do my own stuff and some on the side when I have time. But this could be cool enough to mess with and it would be one of a kind when done. Racing 101 bores me so I do like things that have not been done.

BUT there is more to this than you think. It's all the details that take all the time to get it right. I'm prety sure if you put a cooler under it then it's not just sticking above your hood but you would have to cut the cowl out also. Are you willing to do that? Hogan or several others could make you an intake but they will not consider or care about all these other factors so you could have a 3K intake that just doesn't work for what you're willing to do or maybe even how it looks. I know my goal was to have a stock looking car so nothing could be sticking out of the hood. It made you fab stuff to achive that just like the big 18 pound ice cooler and the cooling core it has that no one can see. It all takes time and a lot of planning before you do anything. Measure twice, cut once!!!

Again, not trying to talk you out of this but you need to know and understand a lot goes into a project like this well beyond the major parts you need. All the peices have to fit together and it has to have an end result that you like in looks and performance. The race car crowd is not so picky about the looks stuff so be careful hooking up with a race shop to do this. Unless you want a race car!!

Bottom line, it can be done if you really want it. But there are hours of questions and engineering before you would do the first thing. Unless YOU are going to do that then you will have money in this project just to figure it out and if you're ok with what that tells you. I spend far more time thinking about what to do or how to make something work than actually doing the work to make it happen. You need a well thought out plan and that takes time.

Welcome to the world of custom

 

[Ratmaster]

Thanks again Jeff. Like I said I do not have the ability to fab this stuff. I wouldn't even try. I am aware of my limits and I can tell you that this is way above and beyond my level. I NEED someone who is willing to work with me... If I had to cut the cowl or put a stupid cowl induction style hood on the car it would defeat the purpose (I'd just go carbd and put a real blower on there at that point). I certainly would not pay hogan if they are only willing to build what they want to build and not what I, the customer, wants to be built. Schooling and the automotive industry seem to be the only industries that believe they should be able to take your money and give you what they want. Imagine walking into McDonalds and asking for a burger without ketchup and they say, "sorry we are making the burger and we think it needs extra ketchup". Makes me wish I did engineering in school because there are clearly no mechanics out there who can run a business. This leaves a huge market for an honest and driven individual to clean up in.

I think I'm going to contact kenne bell and a couple others. If they don't want anything to do with it I will just start looking for a good 472 caddy to put a Weiand on. It's easy enough to do and seems like the companies involved with those cars actually care about them.


I started this thread now with the hopes that within a year or so I'd be starting to put it together. This was an attempt to think about this for far longer than I would spend putting it together but obviously there is a lack of interest and I am not going to answer these questions by myself. Jeff I'd like to thank you for your help but it is now very apparent that I will not be able to make it happen. I would certainly have the budget but I don't think it will be worth working with the crooks (especially if they are not going to build what I want.... Only in the auto industry can a criminal sell and be thanked for it).

So I'll just get my 472. It's to bad.... Maybe someday I will encounter someone I could trust enough to get into this endeavor with me.

Thanks again guys, but at least we now have the conclusion I couldn't find.

If anyone is thinking about doing this, DON'T! Unless you can fab it up yourself because if you find someone willing to be paid for it, they are going to build it the way they want or perhaps take your money and give you nothing in return.

If anyone has these skills and if you are not as dumb as the wrench you turn I would highly suggest finding the financing to open up a shop. Seems to be a completely untapped market.

I wish I had the abilities. Sorry to waste your time.