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Discussion Starter #1
I just found this really bitchin' 90 degree sweeper by my house. Every time I can I take it and am going a little faster each time. Started at around 30mph and am up to 45 so far. Did it again tonight and got some pretty good tire squeal. It sounded like it was coming from the inside rear tire. If I go faster, what can I expect the car to do next? Will the rear step out on me? I am not accelerating through the turn at all, not even at the apex. Should I change my entry or accelerate or anything to get the best response from my car. By the way. ST springs, stock decarbon shocks on a 95 9c1 thanks, NAES
 
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Discussion Starter #2
First of all, take your limit-pushing to the race track or autocross course. I guess I don't care if you wreck your car or kill yourself, but you might take someone else out with you.

It sounds like you're entering the corner hot enough to scare yourself, so you're getting off the throttle. This will transfer weight to the front end, and can cause the back end to come around (this is called trailing-throttle oversteer).

With your listed mods, the car should tend towards understeer if you're not doing something dumb like jumping off the gas mid-corner or trailing the brakes in way too far. Get your braking done earlier so you're coming into the corner at a little safer speed, and start getting on the gas sooner. The car will be more stable, you'll be less likely to upset it and send it twirling into the woods, and you'll learn a technique that will allow you to get around a corner a lot more quickly. Since my car is set up right on the ragged edge of oversteer, I'll try to get almost all of my braking done before I point the car into the turn. As soon as I hit the apex of the turn, I'm back into the throttle and trying to get down the next straight as quickly as possible. Going into the corner too quickly screws up my ability to get back into the throttle, and makes the car less stable - going slower and increasing the chance of swapping ends is not the way to pull down good lap times.

The most important point is still my first one - don't dick around with exploring your traction limits on the street.
 
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Discussion Starter #3
I tried accelerating out of a left hand turn once, lit the tires and the rear started going right, but the good part was that the nose kept going where I wanted it to.

I guess that's oversteer (loose)???

I noticed I have to be pretty careful accelerating out of a turn.
 
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Discussion Starter #4
Every car I have bought immediately (as in during the test drive with the salesman in the Miata) :D gets taken to a BIG EMPTY parking lot for several high speed tight turns in order to loose control. I have "dirt tracked" all of my cars on asphalt as much as it takes to get completely familiar with it's handling characteristics. This is the only way I have found to get the “feel” of the limit of the car.

I agree with Eric, you should be completely safe and do this type of driving in a safe manner and safe place.

Mike
 
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Discussion Starter #5
First of all, it will be very hard to get a B-body with stock swaybars to oversteer on you. You have to do something really stupid..
Entering the curve as hot as you can while trail braking transfers weight to the front tires which will reduce this understeer inherent in the stock set up and allow you to "hit" the apex if you have judged your line correctly. As soon as you are at the apex you should be on the gas which will transfer weight to the rear through the transition and allow you to accelerate out of the corner as fast as possible.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eric Bryant:
....Since my car is set up right on the ragged edge of oversteer, I'll try to get almost all of my braking done before I point the car into the turn. As soon as I hit the apex of the turn, I'm back into the throttle and trying to get down the next straight as quickly as possible. Going into the corner too quickly screws up my ability to get back into the throttle, and makes the car less stable - going slower and increasing the chance of swapping ends is not the way to pull down good lap times....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aaahhh, so that's why you're so slow around the track.... ;)

Sorry couldn't resist!

I agree with the Safety first statements... See you at the track.
 
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Discussion Starter #6
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SSMOKEM:
I guess that's oversteer (loose)???

I noticed I have to be pretty careful accelerating out of a turn.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

George,

That's power-induced oversteer, and is more of a function of power than suspension setup. It's also the best reason to own an overpowered RWD car :D

Chris,

I'll let the stopwatches do my trash-talking next month ;) Besides, I think you remember what happened when I was playing around with trail-braking technique (I gave you a good 180 degree look at Turn 7, as viewed from my passenger's seat). I've found that my car responds well to the same corner technique that I use on my motorcycles - finish up my braking before the turn, and accelerate all the way through the corner. As someone once said, "a car on the throttle is a happy car".
 
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Discussion Starter #7
Having just done my 45 mins. ea. of two endurance races this weekend, slow in & fast out works better. Completing a turn foward on the gas instead of backwards in the grass is faster. This seems truer in my pushing & plowing SS. Find a solo II and push the limits there. It's cheap & fun, & if you're any good you get to beat Mustangs.
later
babyhauler
 
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Discussion Starter #8
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"a car on the throttle is a happy car".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hehehehehehehe..... :D I agree!

Hey Eric,

Do you know of any places where you can take your own car and have an instructor ride with you to learn some handling techniques?
 
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Discussion Starter #9
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Do you know of any places where you can take your own car and have an instructor ride with you to learn some handling techniques?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your local autocross events : at most of them, the "more experienced" guys will gladly ride along and give you some pointers.
 
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Discussion Starter #10
90 degree sweepers are fun. I have a smooth blacktop one on the road to grandma's. It's also a 45 MPH one. I've learned the hard way from when I was younger. When it starts to feel good, don't push it any further. You might be able to get 5, maybe 10 more MPH out, with a lot more squeal and much less cool. You'll eventually wax it. If you're lucky you just bend some sheet metal, if not, your car shopping, or worse... Believe me, I've bent some sheet metal, and had to ride a bicycle as my base transportation. I'm lucky to be alive and not killed anyone. When you start to feel good, try auto-X. It's pretty humbling...
 
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Discussion Starter #11
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eric Bryant:
.... Besides, I think you remember what happened when I was playing around with trail-braking technique (I gave you a good 180 degree look at Turn 7, as viewed from my passenger's seat). I've found that my car responds well to the same corner technique that I use on my motorcycles - finish up my braking before the turn, and accelerate all the way through the corner. As someone once said, "a car on the throttle is a happy car".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

.... and boy was I ever glad you had the 6 point harness for the passenger seat too!!


It's been my contention and experience the the HO/F bar setup is alittle beyond the "neutral" handling characteristic that everyone attributes to it. Sure if you're NOT accelerating or braking too hard through the corner it's well enough behaved but as soon as you mess up (or in my case often on purpose) and go into a corner too hot or come out with alittle too much throttle the rear wants to come around on you without permission.

The way I have "tamed" this setup on my car is to run a wider rear tire. I have just enough understeer that I feel safe and can get alittle "stupid" or misjudge my entry speed or exit speed on a corner without paying dearly. Having said that I did do a spin at the Dreama Autocross, however I was getting WAY stupid
 
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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks for all the input and thanks to those concerned for other drivers. I maybe should have prefaced saying that the sweeper is in an industrial area where there are no buildings, homes, parked cars or traffic for that matter. I have a clear view of the entrance and exit of the turn so if I have to abort it's no problem. Anyway, if I can I'll try to autocross if its available to me. NAES
 
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Discussion Starter #13
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AutocroSSer:
Your local autocross events : at most of them, the "more experienced" guys will gladly ride along and give you some pointers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They'll also be glad to put fingernail marks in your armrest when you start to do stupid stuff ;) Seriously, ride-alongs by experienced drivers are extremely helpful, since they provide an objective viewpoint (I find it hard to criticize my own driving, primarly because I'm having so much fun).

Chris,

I'm considering a larger front bar to try and tame the car a bit. I don't want to go back to running softer rear springs. I'd also like to try some 315s out back (which make a bit of sense considering my newfound power), but the cost is a bit steep for an "experiment"
 
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Discussion Starter #14
Hi all,

I just wanted to say that I took my SS to a solo2 event this month. I placed in the middle of ALL<< the cars at the event. Keep in mind this was a Vette event and 3/4's of the cars were Z06's and the rest were LT-4(ed) C4's and prepped Vipers!!



I have run the family beater 83 911 SC at cone events, and let me say the F/HA bar / Nittos setup on my 96ImpalaSS rocked my world. The car was very responsive and I dare say almost neutral.

The best part was the guy/offical that busted a gut almost to tears when asked what class my 4500lb 4 door was in got spanked by yours truley.

TAD out
 
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Discussion Starter #15
Greetings -

The 'proper' technique has been described above (Eric) but I'll tell what I've learned.

I've stretched my '94 to the limits many times on pavement dirt/gravel and ice. Both with an inexperienced technique (for fun) and by the book (that would be the Skip Barber book) hehehe. Anyway, all on 9C1 springs (w/airbags at 5#) and 1516/17 Bilsteins and everything else stock. My setup tends toward neutral to slight understeer.

My experience is - if you over power too early in the turn and the back starts to swing out - it comes out slowly (or in George's case quickly) but predictably and is somewhat manageable. (On the stock BFG's) But if you're riding second gear in at high RPM and let off the throttle mid turn (which I've done ONLY ONCE), the "trailing throttle" oversteer caused is MUCH more hairy. :eek: And can EASILY lead to a spin.

So, bottom line, you're better off, and safer, to not concentrate on going 'through' faster, but instead work on coming out faster.

But if you just like to dive in fast, my experience is the stock BFG's can really howl before you end up being in danger of an insurance increase :D. UNLESS of course you get a ticket - Remember, even if "no ones around", it's still considered reckless driving.

Derik
 
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