Seat Belt Bolts Pics and Torx Plus - Chevy Impala SS Forum
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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 03-12-2018, 05:26 PM Thread Starter
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Seat Belt Bolts Pics and Torx Plus

I will be installing a carpet this summer and broke my torx T47 to get it.

The search gave me no good information so I looked at the internet.

Several GM forums had the same answer: The T47 Torx Plus.

Several of the "Tool Truck" companies sell them. They describe them as for: GM seat belt bolts and GM door strikers.

I will leave it to you to look up torx vs torx plus images. The torx plus is just a bit larger and the torx bit will be loose in a torx plus bolt.

Got my T47 torx plus and was going to take pictures and settle the debate for all time.

Wrong!

What I found was different batches of bolts were in fact different.

The ones I took off a 93 Caprice I will call smooth socket type. The small outboard bolts will accept the T50 to about 1/2 depth and if the bolt turns easy should work. The longer bolts on the floor pan for the latches are different. The bit will only enter the bolt a very short distance and if you hammer the bit onto the bolt it may work. The T47 Torx Plus goes to the bottom of both bolts and fits tight.

My other bolt stash I thought came from a 93 Roadmaster but may have some 96 9C1 bolts mixed in. These bolts look like they have a small drill divot at the bottom. A T50 might be hammered into this type but I expect bolt head damage and a very high probability of breaking the T50 as very little of it will contact the bolt head. The T47 Torx Plus goes to the bottom and fits tight.

I think you can get replacement bolts so you may want to toss your bad ones.

Through a internet search I found a post about the T47 Torx Plus on this forum. I can not find it now. If anyone can find the original post I would like to give him credit for this.
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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 03-12-2018, 09:09 PM
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I always use a TORX 50. The one from Harbor Freight fits best. I have one from Autozone, and it does not fit. I have tapped one in now and then, and have not broken any. The TORX should fit very snugly, or they are prone to breaking. The idea is to use all of the bit shape to put pressure on the bolt, not just the tips of the shape.
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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 03-12-2018, 10:44 PM
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I’ll just add that having worked on cars for a living, both in auto body & as a mechanic, have run into issues and differences with this.
Have a few different bits t47, t50, etc., and I just use whatever fits best.

I removed and replaced all if mine in ‘94, and removed all from a ‘96 parts wagon using my t50 bit. A t47 was too loose, but would’ve worked being careful. My t50 is a Matco, and I have 2 or 3 different t47 bits all different manufacturers.
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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 03-13-2018, 06:09 AM
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As others have said, T50 is the correct size.
I use a cheap A$$ craftsman and never broken it because
it is the right size.
Tap it in for a super tight fit and use a pipe on your ratchet for leverage.
Nab
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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 03-13-2018, 10:49 AM Thread Starter
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Blue Wail and Fred Kiehl. I would like to thank you and a few others for sharing your knowledge, and demonstrating great patience on this forum. You and others have saved me uncountable time and money.

That said take your best seat belt bolt to a high end tool vendor and try a "GM style" Torx Plus T47, a normal T47, and a normal T50 and see which one
Quote:
The idea is to use all of the bit shape to put pressure on the bolt, not just the tips of the shape
I have with a varied bolt sample and the Torx Plus T47 goes deeper and fits tighter than a normal T47(loose) and a T50(does not go to bottom).

The Torx is a tapered bit. \/
It is possible to engage many fasteners with "the next size up" This does not make it the best choice.
Many fasteners have a beveled or tapered top to make insertion easier but this area of the fastener is not used to drive it.
I suspect that Torx does not specify the tip dimensions and tool manufactures cause further confusion by varying tip dimensions.
The torx plus is just a bit larger and has the correct shape for maximum drive contact.

Please provide a example where you
Quote:
Tap it in
to get the proper sized tool to connect properly with a clean undamaged fastener.

Search torx vs torx plus

https://www.acument.com/products/comparison/

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post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 03-13-2018, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z09B4U View Post
Blue Wail and Fred Kiehl. I would like to thank you and a few others for sharing your knowledge, and demonstrating great patience on this forum. You and others have saved me uncountable time and money.

That said take your best seat belt bolt to a high end tool vendor and try a "GM style" Torx Plus T47, a normal T47, and a normal T50 and see which one I have with a varied bolt sample and the Torx Plus T47 goes deeper and fits tighter than a normal T47(loose) and a T50(does not go to bottom).

The Torx is a tapered bit. \/
It is possible to engage many fasteners with "the next size up" This does not make it the best choice.
Many fasteners have a beveled or tapered top to make insertion easier but this area of the fastener is not used to drive it.
I suspect that Torx does not specify the tip dimensions and tool manufactures cause further confusion by varying tip dimensions.
The torx plus is just a bit larger and has the correct shape for maximum drive contact.

Please provide a example where you to get the proper sized tool to connect properly with a clean undamaged fastener.

Search torx vs torx plus

https://www.acument.com/products/comparison/
I'll chime in since I have replaced the carpet in both my 1998 Tahoe & Caprice. Both use a T50 headed bolt.

There were two in my truck that were extremely tough to remove. I first sheared the torx area head off my existing/old 1/2 drive socket. I don't recall if it was a Craftsman at the moment, but I ended up getting a long shafted T50, 1/2 Drive, from MAC Tools.

I ended up having to weld a hex nut to the top of the bolts which had started to have the T50 socket/recess strip. Those came out with very little resistance after the bolts were thoroughly heated from the arc welding.

I got all new short bolts from my local GM parts guy, so replacements are still available. I didn't try replacing the shouldered seat belt hold down bolts since they were in great shape.

Any way FYI.....

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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 03-13-2018, 12:11 PM Thread Starter
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I have removed these bolts with vice grips and a hammer.

If I came on the forum and said I have never tried any other method and the hammer and vice grips must be the correct tools and the easiest ones to use what would you think?

I know I and many people before me have used a T50. That does not automatically make it the correct or best tool.

Good enough is the enemy of excellence.

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post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 03-13-2018, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
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...I suspect that Torx does not specify the tip dimensions and tool manufactures cause further confusion by varying tip dimensions...
Torx is a brand name, like Kleenex. The shape is dictated by ISO 10664.

Torx Plus are also a brand name, and were introduced in the early 90s. I really doubt GM used it for the seatbelt fasteners in the B-Bodies.

Size-for-size, Torx bits will work with Torx Plus fasteners, but not vice-versa.

Now, that doesn't mean the tool manufacturers aren't cheating on their tolerances and producing poorly fitting, sub-standard bits, or the fastener suppliers are doing the same on their screws.

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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 03-13-2018, 11:10 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Torx is a brand name, like Kleenex. The shape is dictated by ISO 10664.
Torx is actually a trademark of Camcar Textron. Torx was developed by them in 1967 then patented. In the 90s when the patent was running out they patented the Torx Plus(good to 2019) and trademarked Torx.

ISO 10664 is the generic version as is"star fastener" and "six lobe recess". There is no one other than Torx that can enforce the shape of a tool or fastener. If it says Torx it should meet the Torx requirements.

Quote:
Now, that doesn't mean the tool manufacturers aren't cheating on their tolerances and producing poorly fitting, sub-standard bits, or the fastener suppliers are doing the same on their screws.
.

Quote:
I always use a TORX 50. The one from Harbor Freight fits best. I have one from Autozone, and it does not fit.
Fred Kiehl

I am in Canada there is a rumor that Harbor Freight sometimes does not make the best tools.

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post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 03-14-2018, 04:00 PM Thread Starter
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I grabbed my T50 bits, the new T47+, and my seat bolts.
First thing I noticed is that one manufacturer did not use Torx on any of its packaging.
So my T50 sample is this:
torx tamper proof, Late 1980s no name Torx, unlabeled T50
One T47+ new off a tool truck.

I quickly sampled my bolt pile and the calipers gave a minimum head depth of 0.18" and a maximum of 0.185."

Did some quick sampling and the best T50 bit into bolt I could get was 0.1030"
The T47+ would repeatably give a depth of 0.1640"

So the T47+ went into all bolts 27% deeper.

Some T50 bit bolt combinations did not penetrate deep enough to hold the bit in the bolt. I call that a fail.

I placed each bit tip down on a flat surface and measured each tip for maximum diameter. I then used two washers to raise the measurement height 0.158" I would have used smaller washers if I had known the T50s at best would penetrate 0.1030"

....tip of T50: 0.3455" 0.3470" 0.3450" Tip of T47+ 0.3355"
Shaft of T50: 0.3575" 0.3580" 0.3485" Shaft of T47+0.3490"

The first is the tamper proof Torx and it was the best of the T50
The plain Torx was next best.
The "T50" that did not say Torx fit the worst.

The T47+ was 0.3355" at the tip and 0.3490" at the shaft measurement.

The point to all this is that the T47+ is only 2.4% different in diameter(.3490/.3575) when compared to a T50.

The T47+ penetrates 27% deeper into the bolt.(.1030/.1640)


The seat belt bolt is a safety item. Why risk damaging it by "tapping in" a T50?
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Last edited by Z09B4U; 03-14-2018 at 04:05 PM.
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