[Lance]

FYI -

Here are the numbers for my latest build with Karl Ellwein, his first ever LT1 357:

Mahle 4.040 piston kit = $650 (same price as the 4.030 piston kit)
Scat 6" I-beam 7/16 bolt rod kit = $330
Align hone mains = $150
Crank balance = $150
Block machine work = $600
LT4 extreme timing set = $150
Gaskets, bearings, oil pump & pick up, ARP bolts = $400
LE2 heads, assembled, cores = $1600
LE 224/230 cam $300
Ellwein labor & consulting = $1000
Total = $5330

Dyno tuned by Brian Herter = 438FWHP (need to check the dyno sheet for RW #'s)

Best ET = 12.6 @ 107 (Have not raced it much nor in the best conditions like Cecil in the fall)

Race weight = 4050 lbs.

My 383 build with Ellwein was $7000+

My 383 build with Golen was $5000+

Trans, rear, exhaust, and suspension costs not included

 

[Lance]

So, based on what was said earlier, it wouldve been cheaper to get that same power out of an LS motor conversion??

Don't know. I have zero experience with LS builds.

Just sharing my experiences with built LT1s.

There will always be people that can build a faster motor cheaper themselves. LS or LT1. Some of us, like myself have
to or like to pay someone to do it for them for an extra premium.

I would have saved $1000+ if I did the build myself. But, I know the "quality" would not compare to Karl's. Plus I don't
have the garage, tools, and time to do it.

Pat Gish has a rebuilt stock LT1 bottom end in his SS. We all know how fast he runs.

Nab builds some stupid fast LT1s for super cheap. Junkyard dog.

However, I have consistently heard and seen that LS motors are easy to make stupid fast for cheap. They have a better
aftermarket and are readily available.

Can we say that about the LT1?

I don't see the issue. LT1 is old tech. LS is new tech soon to be old tech with the introduction of the new LT1. It happens.

Comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Lance]

$5300 for 438 flywheel HP?!? So maybe 350 rear wheel hp? Ouch!

My build is not the norm nor standard. All depends on your budget and circumstances.

Many, many people have built LT1s with way more HP for way more less as I stated above.

So, don't judge.

 

[Lance]

Found 1!!!!

$400 6.0 shortblock
$150 for LS2 rods amd pistons
$ 375 for 243 heads
$100 for NIB Comp 918 springs
$125 for used Comp XR273HR cam
$45 for new rod bearings
$75 head gaskets
$125 used Fbody oilpan pickup tube and dipstick
$400 Swap Meet NIB Carb intake ignition kit
$250 Holley carb
$40 Felpro head bolts.
Accessory drive and water pump came with shortblock.
Reused gaskets except for head gaskets

Reused lifters, main bearings, oil pump.

I ran 11.995 at SSHS12 took runner uo to a SC Crown Vic in one class, and runner up to a SC 6.1L Challenger in the other. I had chassis issues that had my car turning hard right.

At NSHS2 in 2013, I ran 11.76@115.8 with the same engine setup, but I got most of my chassis issues worked out.

So I had less than 1/2 the cost of a built LT1 in the motor.


View attachment 95258



Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App

And there you have it.

I got into the 11.7's with my Ellwein 383 at Cecil with 30 - 40 degree weather and some loaner super lite front skinnes from Nab.

Well done Mike.

 

[Lance]

Something just isn't right with this 9 second Crown Vick:

Story: http://bangshift.com/bangshift1320/crown-vic-runs-9s-looks-like-run-17s-whats-secret-info/

 

[Lance]

I agree. 3 month warranty is **** IMO. The engine would have to be pulled apart and have all bearings replaced, etc. for me to be comfortable with it. No big deal if I could do it myself I guess...but much like most people here, I don't have space to have a car laid up on jack stands and an engine in my living room while I rebuild it. And paying someone to do the work adds up fast.


Don't get me wrong, I've seen cheap LS builds. Gary( LS1MM6) has an impressive car. I've seen it. I've sat in it. But he's also a genius, and he knew the person he got the motor from, knew it was in good shape, and has plenty of space to work on it too. But let's be honest here...90% of people doing these swaps aren't gonna do it themselves. It's really cool you can pull apart a car in your back yard but to assume everyone can do the same thing is naive. No reputable shop is gonna take a motor out of a junkyard and drop it in a customers car without a rebuild either.

TGO, exactly my point with this discussion of LS vs. LT.

People right and left can criticize my choice for a Ellwein 357 based on HP numbers, costs, etc. Is it what I wanted? Does it fit my needs?

I don't have a garage like Nab who can pull and install a budget junkyard refreshed LT1 and race it the same day. And that is not too far from the truth.

Some us can or can't spend the whole week end at the junkyard pulling LS engines, gather parts, modifying harnesses, etc. and throw it all together.

Everyone knows when you start into a build stuff "pops" up like I have an LT4 HD timing set for half the cost, you want it instead of the stock timing set?
Or I have 3/8 thick HD solid push rods real cheap, really don't need them but they wont hurt. We have a problem with the oil pump, need to buy another
one. You really should get the AI heads because they will get you more HP but damn they are expensive. On and on and on. It happens.

Don't f*cking judge unless you are footing the bill. People don't know sh*t about anyone's circumstances. People need to do what works for them.

The LS will make more HP & TQ for less than a LT1. Done. All the rest you all are going on about is relative. You do what works for you within your budget.

Peace and I'm out of here to go post up some more hot sexy red heads for all of you to enjoy.

 

[Lance]

Good times Chris. Good times.

 

[Lance]

So if you were to go buy a used 2006 2500HD with 120k miles, you immediately pull the engine for a rebuild, correct?

I agree with what everyone said on different guys' abilities, facilities, and willingness to work on their cars at different levels. On the flip side of that coin, who are you guys to look down on anyone willing to drop in a used engine? Different strokes for different folks.

I don't look down at it. Hell I wish I had the setup and time to do just that. I do as much as I can myself. Once I don't have the time nor tools and know how, it goes to someone I trust. You save a ton of $ doing stuff yourself.

With a junkyard engine, you can at least pop the oil pan and check the rod bearings while the engine is out.

I have a 96 Jeep Cherokee with 216k miles on it, a 95 Caprice wagon with 240K miles on it, and my 95 9C1 with a 140k on it that I race. My fleet of cars is a junkyard. I just love driving "beaters" and keeping them on the road
surrounded by the endless amounts of Benzs, Audis, Lexus, and BMW here in the DC Metro area.

It's all good. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Lance]

We are comparing the costs of rebuilding your LT to buying an LS and throwing it in correct?

Engine to engine comparison?

I have a 438HP LT1 357 built (specs posted earlier) by Karl Ellwein for $5300 which you thought was a joke,
but I could have bought a 430HP LS3 crate engine from GM for $6300 (link posted by you) and thrown it in
my 9C1 for way cheaper.

However, I do believe and understand that you can get an LS engine, build it to 500+HP, throw it in and get it
running over the weekend for way, way less than $5,300. You would be the exception compared to the rest of us.

Here's another way to look at it, what would you charge me to build a 500+HP LS motor and install it in my
9C1 and make it turn key?

Is my math off?

What am I missing here?

 

[Lance]

This whole thread started with the OP asking about swapping in a JY LS1. eshaw got it off track by asking "why go to the trouble instead of building the LT1". New crate LS engines didn't come up until the last couple posts.

I've said it 5+ times already... not sure why you guys can't comprehend it... if you're ok with a salvage yard engine in your car, which I am, you can get a strong LS into your b-body for far less than $5000. If you want a brand new crate LS3, that's up to you, and it will obviously be a lot more money.




Even recognizing the cynicism behind that post, you're accurate other than the time line, and being the exception... anyone that can r&r their own engine has the ability to execute an LS swap.

My apologies. No cynicism meant. My sincerity was lost in the interwebs. You have more faith in me than I do. I did pull, rebuild my LT1, re-install it and fire it up in the comfort of my carport. I just get
lost with all of the electrical and wiring stuff. That really needs to be plug and play for me. I can disconnect and reconnect everything on a LT1 harness but as soon as I need to splice and use a volt or
ohm reader, game over.

I have found all of your explanations reasonable and I understand where you are coming from. Again, I am in no way judging or questioning what you have done with LS engines.

Seriously, answer my question, what would you charge me to do your budget junkyard LS build for my 9C1? Complete turn key package.

I think that might help people to compare the differences.

Furthermore, an updated "to do list" for an LS swap would be a great idea. Mike has already provided some numbers.

 

[Lance]

Found this LS3 build with dyno numbers and parts price list:

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_1101_ls3_crate_motor_build/viewall.html

PARTS
DESCRIPTION PN SOURCE PRICE
417 stroker assembly DEM417LS Demon Engines $3,225.00
Add stroker components* MISC Demon Engines 825.50
Comp hydraulic roller cam 281LRHR13 Summit Racing 396.95
Comp Cam valvesprings 26918 Jegs 174.99
Fast 102mm Big Mouth TB 54102 Morano Racing 558.99
Fast LSXR intake kit 146302 Summit Racing 949.59
Fast LSXR fuel rails 54023 Summit Racing 199.95
GM cam sprocket 12586481 SDPC* 28.59
GMPP LS3 crate engine 19201992 Summit Racing 7,440.39
GMPP L76/L92 CNC heads 88958698 Pace Performance 1,388.50
GM LS3 controller kit 19201861 SDPC 1,506.39
GM muscle car oil pan kit 19212593 SDPC 125.80
GM harmonic balancer 12620556 SDPC 103.19
GM Y-Body accessory drive 19155067 SDPC 825.85
McLeod LS flywheel 460535 Summit Racing 425.30
Yella Terra Rockers 4172345 Yella Terra 399.00
FAST XFI 301000 Summit Racing 1,649.95

Read more: http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_1101_ls3_crate_motor_build/#ixzz3EigM8J6h