One recipe.

KDS Performance Mount brackets,
- 98-02 Fbody oilpan (they are now available aftermarket for under $250), does not hang below the engine. Holley oilpan is an option as well. CTSV pan with a little crossmember massaging.
-Headers, most F-body headers fit. Several guys have used the Ebay stainless LS1 F-body headers with very good fit.
- truck alternator/PS pump fit without hood clearance issues or frame work.
- aftermarket AC compressor mount.

 

thank you , i bought the dirtydingo engine mounts , is the kds better ?

i think f body pan needs 2 or 3 inch cutting in crossmember right ?

thanks again ..

 

come on guys no one !! ???

what about oil pump ??

im realy confused here

 

Dont mean to hi-jack your thread, but im just curious. What are you hoping to accomplish by going through the headache of an LS1 swap that you cant accomplish with an LT1? Is it more performance? More reliability? Or just the thought of an LS motor? Im just thinking that for the amount of money you spent on the LS motor, plus the conversion parts, plus the conversion costs, you could probably do one bad ass LT1 block. And we havent even began to discuss actual mods to the LS block. Im thinking easily $5-7k at least for the conversion....plus upgrades. You'll easily be looking at $10k. What kinda LT car can be built for that money?? And will the converted LS car be as fast or that much faster? Im just curious as to your logic. Anyone feel free to chime in...im just trying to see the advantages of the LS over the LT dollar for dollar.

 

You can convert to LS for waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay less than $5k.
I did my first LS swap with a 4.8 for under $1200. Turn key.

You can toss 5k into a heads cam 383LT1 and not make 400whp.

My 79 Caprice ran 11.76 on a heads cam 6.0. I had less than 2k in the motor, $500 in the swap.. get an all motor LT1 into the low 12's for $2500.

I laugh my ass off when all the critics overinflate the swap costs to make building an LT1 look like a better idea. All my bbody customers laugh as well.

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I'm going to sit back and watch this one play out. . .

 

FYI -

Here are the numbers for my latest build with Karl Ellwein, his first ever LT1 357:

Mahle 4.040 piston kit = $650 (same price as the 4.030 piston kit)
Scat 6" I-beam 7/16 bolt rod kit = $330
Align hone mains = $150
Crank balance = $150
Block machine work = $600
LT4 extreme timing set = $150
Gaskets, bearings, oil pump & pick up, ARP bolts = $400
LE2 heads, assembled, cores = $1600
LE 224/230 cam $300
Ellwein labor & consulting = $1000
Total = $5330

Dyno tuned by Brian Herter = 438FWHP (need to check the dyno sheet for RW #'s)

Best ET = 12.6 @ 107 (Have not raced it much nor in the best conditions like Cecil in the fall)

Race weight = 4050 lbs.

My 383 build with Ellwein was $7000+

My 383 build with Golen was $5000+

Trans, rear, exhaust, and suspension costs not included

 

FYI -

Here are the numbers for my latest build with Karl Ellwein, his first ever LT1 357:

Mahle 4.040 piston kit = $650
Scat 6" I-beam 7/16 bolt rod kit = $330
Align hone mains = $150
Crank balance = $150
Block machine work = $600
LT4 extreme timing set = $150
Gaskets, bearings, oil pump & pick up, ARP bolts = $400
LE2 heads, assembled, core = $1600
LE 224/230 cam $300
Ellwein labor & consulting = $1000
Total = $5330

Dyno tuned by Brian Herter = 438FWHP (need to check the dyno sheet for RW #'s)

Best ET = 12.6 (Have not raced it much nor in the best conditions like Cecil in the fall)

Race weight = 4050 lbs.

My 383 build with Ellwein was $7000+

My 383 build with Golen was $5000+

Trans, rear, exhaust, and suspension costs not included

So, based on what was said earlier, it wouldve been cheaper to get that same power out of an LS motor conversion?? Im still doubtful that the benefits outweigh the costs of an LS conversion. I have seen RARE cases of people doing LS swaps for less than about $5k (out of those rare cases, 99% of them are just folks who dont want to admit the real cost). I'm still not convinced about the numbers, but hey....who am I to judge? And i'm still looking for the LS powered b-body that dollar for dollar spanks an LT b-body.

 

I've noticed a trend among many LS advocates to minimize,and sugar-coat the costs. Painting an overly optimistic view of the ease with which this can be accomplished,and the costs involved. Much like car magazines used to do. Yea,we just happened to have a fresh,fully prepped LS motor on a stand in the corner of the garage kind of thing. Or,a buddy gave me the PCM/wiring-harness as well as the motor mounts. I did the whole swap myself for $500,and so can you. Unfortunately,some people believe this type of B/S. Only to find themselves over their head with this "super-easy" swap that is costing them dearly at every turn.

 

Thats the point that I am getting at. Im not knocking anyone for wanting to do the swap, but I myself have struggled with this for some time and just cant come out with a lower cost per HP number compared to an LT motor (Hell, i would even accept "break even" HP to dollar numbers). Also, like you said, there are so many cost variables that go into building a motor and it gets extra expensive when building a motor to go into a platform that it wasnt designed to go into. I remember a few years ago, the biggest issue with the LS swap (at least the one that scared me away the 1st time) was the issue of how to get the pedals and throttle to work in a b-body if you were keeping fuel injection. I have yet to hear that mentioned at all. I also see all these figures and times thrown around and I still remain skeptical. This has to be the very first time in my life that I have seen or heard of anyone running 11s or deep 12s for less than a few grand and not using nitrous. Thats why I remain so skeptical of the numbers. Also, I search craigslist, ebay, and a few other sites for these LS blocks and the ones that are complete with decent miles are still fetching at least $1000-1500. But hey....I guess since I dont have a "hookup", I gotta get me a 12 second car for about $3500-5000. Must be nice to be able to build 11 second cars for $2200. If that were the case, I would have at least 3 or 4 in my driveway.

 

Why would you assume you need a $2000 stroker kit and $1000 in "make it fit parts"?
I ran a stock shortblock LS1 junkyard dog ls1 to 12.3. 346 cubes, 7 stock pistons, one 0.010 piston. It was a true jy dog, I reused rings, 4 of the rod bearings, all the mains.. even the head bolts. In comparison, I was running head to head with Stormin Norman at sshs13.. it be was a little too jy, and proved <cough cough> a little unreliable.. ... cough.

Try not padding the tab to justify your opinion. I gave you the cost rundown, and you don't believe it. I guess believe what you want to believe.

But I'll tell you this. Another MISSL member is building a 96SS this winter. We ate reusing a 5.3 L he has, but doing better heads, car intake, and all the stuff you need to do an LS swap. My target is to have his 5m3L making 350HP and INSTALLED for the cost of a stock LT1 rebuild.

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How much are those LS headers?
Also, how did you get the factory cluster to work with the LS PCM?
A/C lines?
P/S lines?

 

A lot of people don't buy a 5.3 to stroke them. They buy one because they love boost with little more than head studs and a cam kit. Sometimes rod bolts to play it safe.

 

Well, lets get back to helping the OP accomplish his swap. Im gonna be watching closely now since it seems so much cheaper than before to do an LS swap.

 

lot of LT1 LOL in here

who the hell strokes a 5.3?

i had a 5.3 in my car i wanted bigger cubes so i got a bigger engine.

no matter what way you cut it a damn LT1 is more expensive to build then a LS even the 4.8 will prob spank a lt1

every bit of money that went to making the 5.3 work in my car (results may vary)

engine 450

rebuild kit with all bearings, seals and gaskets, and plastigauge CAME WITH HEAD BOLTS 175

cleaning supplies and paint 40

assembly lube 5

copper gasket spray 10

solder and shrink wrap for harness 10

cost to research and repin my own GODDAMN HARNESS 0

transmission spacer 35

materials to port heads THEY ARE STOCK ALUMINUM AND OUTFLOW BIG BLOCK HEADS 40

time to watch youtube videos and learn how to put the engine back together 0

scrap metal to make engine mounts off the factory lt1 clamshells 0

water pump already on the engine 0

power steering (made a different one fit) 25

power steering hose 7

stock trans crossmember 0

I COULD HAVE USED THE STOCK DRIVESHAFT 0

computer mail in tune to remove vats 30

ls1 intake 100

bike brake throttle cable 10

corvette fuel regulator filter 30

time to research how to heat/reform fuel lines to put the regulator in the stock location 0

stock trans 0

firebird headers 190

clamps and pipes to make headers fit 35

coolant hoses stock ones flipped 0

stock fuel pump 0

ls3 fuel rails 40

accessory drive belt (jeep 4.0) 14

power steering fluid, trans fluid, oil , filters, misc 40

MINUS the 250 i sold the lt1 for comes to a grand total of


$1,276-$259=$1,026

yes i did the work myself if u pay people to do it it will more

more power and TQ then lt1 STOCK highway passing power is crazy

1026 running and driving ls 5.3 into a b body ready for road trips.


if i missed anything please point it out i tried to b as specific as i could

 

computer mail in tune to remove vats 30

Where did you find a guy that is ok with losing money on an ECM flash?? Just the license (EFI Live @ $125 or HPT @ $100 for 2 credits) will be be tripple that, and then he's not getting anything for his time.

 

Something just isn't right with this 9 second Crown Vick:

Story: http://bangshift.com/bangshift1320/crown-vic-runs-9s-looks-like-run-17s-whats-secret-info/

 

The Law! He's going to twins for next season.

 

Bigger engine to bore out for N2O?? ok. . . .

Props to that guy doing a !VATS flash for $30. I still don't see how his $/hr is worth it, even with unlimited credits, but its a benefit to guys wanting to swap on the cheap. This is, however, a perfect example of the price glossing that was talked about earlier. The seller charges $13 for shipping, plus you have to pay to ship your ECM to him. Right there you left about $25 off your original price list. Those little $20 here, $12 there charges add up in a hurry.

Again, step down off your pedestal. Myself, beertestr, and 95wagon (as well as several others) are all familiar with what it takes to swap an LS engine. Its not rocket sience, but its not the end-all be-all fix to making an LT1 car go fast, either.

 

Anybody seen the original poster, hasn't been around since post #6...

Kinda feel like the doctors started to argue, and patient gave up and walked out of the examination room.

 

Correct,the potential downside is huge...Especially,if there wasn't anything wrong with the LT1 that was removed...

 

Correct, that price is for a salvaged engine. I've bought my take-outs from a credible local salvage yard that tests all of their engines before listing them, and also offers a 3 month replacement and labor reimbursement warranty if there is anything wrong with the part/engine.

In a few months I'll be pulling my stock, 58k mile, isn't-anything-wrong-with-it LT1 to drop in a much higher mileage LQ4/4L80e from a 2006 1 ton van that I bought complete for $900 and drove home. All I plan to do is clean it up, drop on some self-ported 243 heads with LS9 MLS head gaskets and studs, Isky tripple-12 cam, an LS1 intake, HD-2 kit in the trans, and run it.

The apples vs. oranges part of comparing a freshly built LT1 vs a used 100k mile LS has already been discussed... and it doesn't bother me a bit to do that in my own car. Knowing that the LS engine/trans are in good working condition, I am still looking at it as a $/hp and $/days of down time.

 

Correct, that price is for a salvaged engine.......

Mmmmm......I'd have pony up the cheese for a rebuild.

Not tryin' to be funny or over-critical, but no matter how much a salvage yard 'tests' an engine, it's still pretty much an unknown quantity.

But hell.....that's just me.

KW

 

I doubt any "testing" is all that rigorous beyond the engine starts/runs,if that...

 

.... ....

 

Good times Chris. Good times.

 

I don't look down on LS motors either. What I look down on is the frequency of their recommendation as the solution to problems that people ask about. You like LS motors,I get that...I suspect that any excuse to install one is a good one in your mind,I get that too. As a practical matter for most of us (especially,those who've never done one) It is far from a "budget-mod". I find many posts that suggest/recommend LS swaps to be very misleading as to the true cost,and the ease/simplicity with it can be accomplished. The "apples to oranges" comparisons to make it seem more cost-effective,and/or less expensive are misleading as well in my opinion.

 

As a practical matter for most of us (especially,those who've never done one) It is far from a "budget-mod". I find many posts that suggest/recommend LS swaps to be very misleading as to the true cost,and the ease/simplicity with it can be accomplished. The "apples to oranges" comparisons to make it seem more cost-effective,and/or less expensive are misleading as well in my opinion.

Im still trying to wrap my head around this LS swap for less than a few grand. No matter how I add it up, its AT LEAST $2500 to do the swap. And of course...there's always something that I have to add to the list because I didnt know about it for the swap or someone failed to mention it. Listening to most of these LS swap guys, you'd think it was easy peasy to do a LS swap into a NON LS car.....but I wasnt born yesterday.....Fast and Reliable aint cheap....no matter which way you spin it.

So.....no one has posted results of an LS swapped car dogging out a LT1 car??? Still looking for it locally....have yet to see results here on the net. One thing I do see is this....hell of a lot of HP/TQ numbers being thrown around....and not too many times being posted. And by the way....it IS possible to build an 11 sec LT1 f-body for less than $2500...see it all the time on the f-body forums. And guess what.....the LS cars run 11s too....with usually the same or considerably more money invested.

Just had to come back on here and see if anything has changed....looks like it hasnt....still just folks saying they did a complete swap for $1200 or less. Talk is cheap...and right now, its on sale for free 99....and I still aint buying it...

 

Plus,he's totally un-biased...

 

eshaw, I'm not sure why you've got a chip on your shoulder, or why you like to completely twist what I am saying or taking it out of context, but it's not very flattering on you.

Yes, I am talking about my personal LS swap experiences. Yes, I have said multiple times that I am ok with a used engine in my own car... many guys are not. Yes, I researched for months before even buying parts for my first swap. Yes, my local salvage yard is great... I'm sorry yours isn't.

And yes, I am downtalking your research... if you want to focus on the one swap on here claiming $1200 (hint, it wasn't me, and I definitely wouldn't be able to do a swap to my standards for close to that) as the sole reference, and you think it takes more money to get an LS f-body (not sure why we switched to f-body cars, but ok, I built/owned a bunch of them over the last 15 years) you clearly aren't looking... or want to look... in the right places.



1slow, maybe I am a little biased. After cutting my teeth on LT1 cars in high school and college (got a '90 Camaro RS into the 11's with just a hot cammed '94 LT1, 4.10's, and a 125 shot), and making the switch to the LS platform in '06 and seeing how easy it is to squeeze 500 bhp out of them, it's hard for me to take a step backwards in my pursuit of high HP on a modest budget.

 

Look bro...I'm not trying to be difficult. And I'm not discounting anything you say. My issue is that no one can give a complete list of parts needed and an accurate ballpark estimate. When I try to figure out the swap and get the details together to do it RIGHT, the responses are all the same....I did my swap for less than "xx" dollars. All I'm trying to do (just like the op) is get a pretty accurate cost and detailed parts list. One thing is the common theme here....none of you ls swap guys that have so much experience can put together a list that is complete and accurate. If you've done something so many times before then this should be easy. And I'm not looking for the response from the guys who did it for $600 because they own a state of the art facility with all the tools and materials needed for fabrication. I'm looking for the response from the garage mechanic like myself that has a good set of hand tools, and good mechanical skills and a garage that can't support a lift and all the other goodies. Can someone please do that??? Put together a list that is both accurate and complete??? That's all I'm asking. And if it comes out being cheaper than an lt1 then that's great. But as of now I'm highly skeptical because all we hear is how people did it for these unbelievable prices....but then you have the guys who are more forthcoming that admit it was expensive and their costs fall in line with what I'm calculating. I know how much it costs to build a great lt1 and the info on that is in abundance on this forum. But when it comes to ls swaps....All we get are HP numbers and bragging about how so and so did it and made 500 HP for less than a grand. Hell....the used parts alone cost about that. But hey...I guess guys are fabricating complete engine blocks too....

 

So let me get this straight...you're saying an ly6 can be had for less than a grand???? Enough said....I can't deal.....

 

Please, PLEASE show me where I said you can get any 6.0 for under $1000. You're not even trying any more... now you're just making things up. Regardless, its not hard to find good LY6 for under $1500, loaded in your truck.

Edit: I just skimmed through your 377 build thread. Its obvious you're one of those guys that wants all the information layed out in a nice neat recipe for you, with all the leg work already done. I read, took notes, and asked specific questions on areas I was concerned with when prepping for my first LS swap. There is no such thing as "tell me what all I need" without paying for it. Nab is a lot more patient that I could be.

Actually it is a tell all guarantee. Because they can pick up failures long before they manifest themselves. Again, for $20 you can pass on to the customer, I don't see why it's not common practice. I'd rather buy an engine with a clean blackstone report and no warranty than one with no report and a 90 day warranty.

I am fully aware of the benefits of an engine oil analysis. That still doesn't guarantee against lifters failing, smoked valve guide seals, blown head gasket (on the early LS's), or any other common part failure that you can uncover with a compression test and test run. In a perfect world, you could hear the engine run, test drive the car, get an oil analysis, and a lifetime guarantee... but we don't live in a perfect world.

What? That's what I want. I don't care if you can pick up a 6.0l from a junkyard for cheaper. Supporting mods? Who the hell is going to swap in a motor their transmission can't handle? You're telling me even if you were sticking with the 60E you're not going to count REQUIRED upgrades to handle the new engines power? Really?

Please see post #14:

Ignoring all other supporting mods that you have to do on an LT1 build when starting from stock (built trans, bigger fuel pump, post-headers exhaust, fluids during the build, computer tune, cold air intake, etc)

I made that comment a LONG time ago. You're going to need all those supporting mods regardless of using a 500 hp LSx, 500 hp LT1, or 500 hp Briggs & Stratton to power your car, so how can you include them in the LT vs LS debate?

And yeah...why wouldn't I go for the gusto? The LS3 is literally the best engine GM has aside from the new LT1. All things the same, the LS3 will ALWAYS make more power than an LS1, 2, 6, etc.

I see you're taking tips from eshaw, now. If you want an LS3, go for it. That's clearly not a modest-budget swap, and was never part of my examples or approach.

Really? Show me your source and I might buy it right now. Because I haven't seen one for under $7000. GM's price is almost $8000...

I would start with GMPP.
https://chevroletperformanceparts.com/p/ls3-new-62l430hp

Right. So the ~$10k I mentioned isn't as laughable as you said it is, is it? Actually it would be more.

Correct, going with a brand new crate engine from GM would easily put you in the $10k ballpark. Again, never was that ever my approach to getting good HP on a modest (read: not shade tree) budget out of an LS swap.

 

We are comparing the costs of rebuilding your LT to buying an LS and throwing it in correct?

Engine to engine comparison?

I have a 438HP LT1 357 built (specs posted earlier) by Karl Ellwein for $5300 which you thought was a joke,
but I could have bought a 430HP LS3 crate engine from GM for $6300 (link posted by you) and thrown it in
my 9C1 for way cheaper.

However, I do believe and understand that you can get an LS engine, build it to 500+HP, throw it in and get it
running over the weekend for way, way less than $5,300. You would be the exception compared to the rest of us.

Here's another way to look at it, what would you charge me to build a 500+HP LS motor and install it in my
9C1 and make it turn key?

Is my math off?

What am I missing here?

 

This whole thread started with the OP asking about swapping in a JY LS1. eshaw got it off track by asking "why go to the trouble instead of building the LT1". New crate LS engines didn't come up until the last couple posts.

I've said it 5+ times already... not sure why you guys can't comprehend it... if you're ok with a salvage yard engine in your car, which I am, you can get a strong LS into your b-body for far less than $5000. If you want a brand new crate LS3, that's up to you, and it will obviously be a lot more money.

However, I do believe and understand that you can get an LS engine, build it to 500+HP, throw it in and get it
running over the weekend for way, way less than $5,300. You would be the exception compared to the rest of us.

Even recognizing the cynicism behind that post, you're accurate other than the time line, and being the exception... anyone that can r&r their own engine has the ability to execute an LS swap.

 

Found this LS3 build with dyno numbers and parts price list:

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_1101_ls3_crate_motor_build/viewall.html

PARTS
DESCRIPTION PN SOURCE PRICE
417 stroker assembly DEM417LS Demon Engines $3,225.00
Add stroker components* MISC Demon Engines 825.50
Comp hydraulic roller cam 281LRHR13 Summit Racing 396.95
Comp Cam valvesprings 26918 Jegs 174.99
Fast 102mm Big Mouth TB 54102 Morano Racing 558.99
Fast LSXR intake kit 146302 Summit Racing 949.59
Fast LSXR fuel rails 54023 Summit Racing 199.95
GM cam sprocket 12586481 SDPC* 28.59
GMPP LS3 crate engine 19201992 Summit Racing 7,440.39
GMPP L76/L92 CNC heads 88958698 Pace Performance 1,388.50
GM LS3 controller kit 19201861 SDPC 1,506.39
GM muscle car oil pan kit 19212593 SDPC 125.80
GM harmonic balancer 12620556 SDPC 103.19
GM Y-Body accessory drive 19155067 SDPC 825.85
McLeod LS flywheel 460535 Summit Racing 425.30
Yella Terra Rockers 4172345 Yella Terra 399.00
FAST XFI 301000 Summit Racing 1,649.95

Read more: http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_1101_ls3_crate_motor_build/#ixzz3EigM8J6h

 

Good gawd almighty! That's like $15k in that build! For that price I can build an lt1, blow it, build a second na lt1 just to have and still have plenty left over for "necessities". Damn

 

What happened to the post showing prices that took 5 mins? I was gonna look into getting one of those motors just to have around.

 

There was a post that listed multiple LY6 engines for sale across the country for less than $1000. Poster said it took less than 5 minutes to find them available. He has since deleted his post.

Are you talking about my post #26?

I looked at car-part.com and in ATL it looks like '01-'04 LQ4's bring $1000-1400... you definitely don't need a "hookup".