to make a swap4l80e into the 96 caprice /my motor is ready and ill like to use a 4l80e tranny i hear they are strong trannys. what do i need to make this swap happen?
Stickied: 4l80E Swap Questions: wiring, etc.
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gallo-lo
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What do we need to do because of that?
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Can someone please confirm this?
Also, Nab tells me that you have to move the tan TCC wire to the 3-2 downshift wire. Does that mean that you simply move the Tan wire to the 3-2 downshift pin hole? If so, is there no wire already there, and if something is there, then what are you supposed to do with it?
Finally, is this all that is needed? What other tuning changes should be or could be made to make the 4L80E work best?
Some reference links: http://www.msgpio.com/manuals/mshift/4L80E/4L80e.html#settings
Tunercat definition file $EE CY is required for this... http://www.tunercat.com/pdfs/pcm_$ee.pdf
Also, Nab tells me that you have to move the tan TCC wire to the 3-2 downshift wire. Does that mean that you simply move the Tan wire to the 3-2 downshift pin hole? If so, is there no wire already there, and if something is there, then what are you supposed to do with it?
Finally, is this all that is needed? What other tuning changes should be or could be made to make the 4L80E work best?
Some reference links: http://www.msgpio.com/manuals/mshift/4L80E/4L80e.html#settings
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I'm almost finished with the job. The only thing left is to sort out the TCC lockup. Everything else seems to be working perfectly. Other than the changes to the switch table for the 4L80E solenoid pattern, I've pretty much kept all of the trans tables the same as the 4L60E. I only changed the shift RPM's and cut the normal mode shift times in half. It shifts perfectly and I like the faster shifts. I think that it drives better with the LT1 computer than it did with the PCS TCU.
So about the TCC. I had originally moved the Brown wire from U to S. On the first test drive it was locking the converter way too soon, as if it was set to lock at too low a speed. So I decided I must have swapped the wrong wire. So I then moved the Tan Black wire that was in T to S, which is the one Nab had told me to use in the beginning. However, now I don't get TCC at all. I guess I was right in thinking Nab was wrong. Anyway, I'll take a closer look at the bin file to see if the TCC tables are goofed up. If so, then I guess I put the brown wire from pin U back into pin S and adjusting the TCC tables.
So far I'm please with how well the LT1 PCM controls the 4L80E, and I'm happy that it didn't require the use of a relay to make it happen. TunerCat to the rescue!
So about the TCC. I had originally moved the Brown wire from U to S. On the first test drive it was locking the converter way too soon, as if it was set to lock at too low a speed. So I decided I must have swapped the wrong wire. So I then moved the Tan Black wire that was in T to S, which is the one Nab had told me to use in the beginning. However, now I don't get TCC at all. I guess I was right in thinking Nab was wrong. Anyway, I'll take a closer look at the bin file to see if the TCC tables are goofed up. If so, then I guess I put the brown wire from pin U back into pin S and adjusting the TCC tables.
So far I'm please with how well the LT1 PCM controls the 4L80E, and I'm happy that it didn't require the use of a relay to make it happen. TunerCat to the rescue!
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Is that an OBD2 PCM or an OBD1 conversion PCM in your car? Do you think that OBD1 vs. OBD2 would make a difference?
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It's an OBD-1 conversion. I hope that it works just as well with an OBD-2 PCM, because I'm planning to buy the DST kit from Jet. I just wanted to make sure this would work using the tuning software I already had on hand before plopping down another $400.
I looked at the TCC tables, and I don't see why it was locking so low like it did. I also need to find out which tables control the TCC in a 4L80E. I think I read that the 4L60E has two TCC signals (on off and PWM), whereas the 80E only uses PWM. The good news (temporarily) is that I don't need the TCC to race the thing! But I do need it for the street, and it's still a street car.
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Good news, the TCC lockup is working, and Nab was correct about moving the PCM_C4-11 (Transmission TCC Solenoid) Tan/Blk wire to position S in the trans connector. The reason I didn't have TCC lockup the first time I test drove it was because I didn't let it get up to operating temp. It was below freezing that night and I was being too cautious about running an untested setup to far from home late at night. Tonight I took for a much longer drive, and it definitely locked up this time. I felt it lock, and I have a DM log that shows it.
Also, using the TCC Enable signal is just one of the ways to do this. Thanks to the efforts of brilliant minds over at EFI Live, there is another option involving a relay that lets you use the TCC PWM signal to pulse the TCC PWM Solenoid, link. It requires that you use the TCC Enable signal to latch a relay that drives the PWM signal on the S position at the Trans connector.
Also, using the TCC Enable signal is just one of the ways to do this. Thanks to the efforts of brilliant minds over at EFI Live, there is another option involving a relay that lets you use the TCC PWM signal to pulse the TCC PWM Solenoid, link. It requires that you use the TCC Enable signal to latch a relay that drives the PWM signal on the S position at the Trans connector.
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The 4l80 has the same amount of ranges as the 4l60. It just has slightly lower ratios. Ratssled has a 3.42 gear in the car IIRC, because it delivers the same overdrive ratio as a 3.73 and the OD in the 4l60. All overdrives lower final drive in gear rpm for sure. The 4l80e doesn't drop rpm as far as the 4l60E.
Chris
Chris
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Just a update: April's car is still running great with the 4L80 controlled by OBD1 LT1 pcm as Glen described above.
She drag raced it at Island dragway a couple weeks ago and even though we trailered it, she had to drive it home because our truck started running shizzy-like.
Her car has a 377 and 4.56 gears and was running 13.0s consistently.
Nab
She drag raced it at Island dragway a couple weeks ago and even though we trailered it, she had to drive it home because our truck started running shizzy-like.
Her car has a 377 and 4.56 gears and was running 13.0s consistently.
Nab
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4l80 vs. 4l60 vs. 200r4
2.48 vs. 3.06 vs. 2.74
1.48 vs. 1.63 vs. 1.57
1.00 vs. 1.00 vs. 1.00
0.75 vs. 0.69 vs. 0.67
3.73 * 0.75 = 2.80
3.73 * 0.69 = 2.57
3.73 * 0.67 = 2.50
Best for highway driving, actually, is the 200r4's 4th gear.
Too bad we didn't wind up with a 200r4E, gear spread looks better for our purposes.
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What to do with second VSS?
If you're wondering where to connect the VSS connector on the LT1 harness, it gets plugged into the VSS at the rear of the 4L80E, similar to a 4L60E. There is another identical speed sensor at the front, and people have asked what to do with this "second" VSS. You do nothing with it, because it's actually an ISS (Input Speed Sensor) that measures turbine speed, and it's not used in the LT1 PCM because 4L60E's don't have an ISS. It instead relies on engine RPM for detecting trans slip.
http://ls1tech.com/forums/13351794-post40.html
If you're wondering where to connect the VSS connector on the LT1 harness, it gets plugged into the VSS at the rear of the 4L80E, similar to a 4L60E. There is another identical speed sensor at the front, and people have asked what to do with this "second" VSS. You do nothing with it, because it's actually an ISS (Input Speed Sensor) that measures turbine speed, and it's not used in the LT1 PCM because 4L60E's don't have an ISS. It instead relies on engine RPM for detecting trans slip.
http://ls1tech.com/forums/13351794-post40.html
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Thanks for all the help, I just made a deal on a 4L80E that was too good to pass up so I will be doing the 4L60e to 4L80e swap.
Just to make sure I have this covered, I have to
-flip the logic for the shift B solenoid with tunercats
-move the U brown wire into the S position
Is that all that is needed to make this work?
I understand I will need the 168 tooth flexplate and new starter to match.
Just to make sure I have this covered, I have to
-flip the logic for the shift B solenoid with tunercats
-move the U brown wire into the S position
Is that all that is needed to make this work?
I understand I will need the 168 tooth flexplate and new starter to match.
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I don't think you want to follow the instructions in that image.Thanks for all the help, I just made a deal on a 4L80E that was too good to pass up so I will be doing the 4L60e to 4L80e swap.
Just to make sure I have this covered, I have to
-flip the logic for the shift B solenoid with tunercats
-move the U brown wire into the S position
Is that all that is needed to make this work?
I understand I will need the 168 tooth flexplate and new starter to match.
I think I only had to move that one wire to position "S".
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**EDIT** From what I have read the "U" 4L60E PWM signal cannot be used to activate the "s" 4L80E TCC lockup because the 4L60 uses two signals to control lockup.. Not sure why the wire colors do not line up, maybe they are for newer LS style 4L60e and 4L80e.
Information I found says that either the "T" TCC on/off wire could be used but makes the TCC lockup harsh, other option is to use both 4L60E signals to control the TCC lockup with a relay. I dont know the guys who came up with this stuff but many thanks to them for sharing.
RatSSled, did you use the single wire "TCC ON/OFF" to control your lockup?
Information I found says that either the "T" TCC on/off wire could be used but makes the TCC lockup harsh, other option is to use both 4L60E signals to control the TCC lockup with a relay. I dont know the guys who came up with this stuff but many thanks to them for sharing.
RatSSled, did you use the single wire "TCC ON/OFF" to control your lockup?
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RatSSled, did you use the single wire "TCC ON/OFF" to control your lockup?
also did you do any tuning due to the first gear difference or anything else trans related to the swap?
also did you do any tuning due to the first gear difference or anything else trans related to the swap?
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I don't remember, but I thought I mentioned above that it's what I did. I really don't have the time to go pull the connector off and check. You could ask Blue Wail. He's also running a 4L80E with the stock PCM.
You adjust the shift and TCC lockup speeds to suit your preference. Once you get it on the road you'll know fairly quickly what you want to change. I had a standalone TCU before I got the PCM to work, so I already had a good template for those settings from years of previous tuning. I can send you my tune if want to look.
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that would be great if you could send it, then I can compare tables. I am still trying to find the solenoid table in tunercats to reverse the logic for the shift B solenoid, I think my version is down level and I have to get the latest version.
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There are only 2 changes required for an LT1 PCM to support a 4L80E!
I've collected the below from above in hopes that I can do a better job of explaining here. I'm going off of memory and what I wrote above, so it's possible that I could miss something or remember wrong, but here goes.
________________________________________________________________
1) Change "Shift Solenoid B": Reverse it for the 4L80E !
Congrats, you're half way there.
________________________________________________________________
2) TCC Lockup using "TCC Enable": MOVE Tan/Blk wire from pin T to pin S at Trans connector
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Congrats, you're now done with the wiring and the PCM will control a 4L80E!
________________________________________________________________
Throw in some shift point and TCC lockup adjustments to finish off the project.
Note: Plan to adjust the wiring harness (move the exits from the main harness) to accomodate the longer 4L80E, which also places connectors on opposite sides of the car.
I've collected the below from above in hopes that I can do a better job of explaining here. I'm going off of memory and what I wrote above, so it's possible that I could miss something or remember wrong, but here goes.
________________________________________________________________
1) Change "Shift Solenoid B": Reverse it for the 4L80E !
Can be accomplished using either a relay (not explained here, look it up) or by re-programming the PCM, literally 2 changes in the SWITCH (1st) table.
Note: Requires a specific TunerCat definition file version CY.
Congrats, you're half way there.
Still confused 
- Get CATS Tuner (aka Tunercat), version 2.26 will work.
- Get ECM file PCM_EE, MUST be version CY!
- Read your current PCM and save the file
- Open the ECM SWICH TABLE
- Change the selections for Shift Solenoid B according to the chart below.
- Write the new file to the PCM.*
* Note: Look before you write. Does the Injector size in the constants table look right?
X Shift Solenoid A - 1st Gear (X=Enabled)
0 Shift Solenoid A - 2nd Gear (X=Enabled)
0 Shift Solenoid A - 3rd Gear (X=Enabled)
X Shift Solenoid A - 4th Gear (X=Enabled)
0 Shift Solenoid B - 1st Gear (X=Enabled)
0 Shift Solenoid B - 2nd Gear (X=Enabled)
X Shift Solenoid B - 3rd Gear (X=Enabled)
X Shift Solenoid B - 4th Gear (X=Enabled)
0 Shift Solenoid A - 2nd Gear (X=Enabled)
0 Shift Solenoid A - 3rd Gear (X=Enabled)
X Shift Solenoid A - 4th Gear (X=Enabled)
0 Shift Solenoid B - 1st Gear (X=Enabled)
0 Shift Solenoid B - 2nd Gear (X=Enabled)
X Shift Solenoid B - 3rd Gear (X=Enabled)
X Shift Solenoid B - 4th Gear (X=Enabled)
________________________________________________________________
2) TCC Lockup using "TCC Enable": MOVE Tan/Blk wire from pin T to pin S at Trans connector
But wait, it can be more complicated if you want, and there is information out there about using PWM for TCC that can trip you up if you read it and think there's got to be more to it than just this one wire change. See red highlighted section at the bottom for a link to a write up.
Congrats, you're now done with the wiring and the PCM will control a 4L80E!
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Want to improve the tune for better shifts and TCC lockup? Here are the tables that you'll want to adjust:
Main Line Pressure Tables: Put these back to near stock!
Shift Points: Based on personal preference and rear gear, you may like it to shift earlier or later.
Shift Time: I cut them down to reduce shift time, and it feels better to me.
TCC Lockup: Based on personal preference and rear gear, you will need to raise these in 3rd and 4th gear. Play with the speeds to adjust to your preference.
see attached SAMPLE: http://www.impalassforum.com/vBulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=88337&stc=1&d=1405452240
Main Line Pressure Tables: Put these back to near stock!
Note: DO NOT RUN HIGH LINE PRESSURE (over 100) ON A 4L80E, else it will burn up quickly!!!
Shift Points: Based on personal preference and rear gear, you may like it to shift earlier or later.
- Normal Up/Down Shift Points
- Performance Up/Down Shift Points
- Kickdown Up/Down Shift Points
- Kickdown Mode Up/Down Shift Points
Shift Time: I cut them down to reduce shift time, and it feels better to me.
- Shift Time (sec) Vs. %TPS Vs. Shift, Normal Mode, Low Alt.
- Shift Time (sec) Vs. %TPS Vs. Shift, Normal Mode, High Alt.
TCC Lockup: Based on personal preference and rear gear, you will need to raise these in 3rd and 4th gear. Play with the speeds to adjust to your preference.
- TCC Normal Mode Engage MPH Vs. Gear Vs. %TPS
- TCC Normal Mode Release MPH Vs. Gear Vs. %TPS
- TCC Cruise Mode Engage MPH Vs. Gear Vs. %TPS
- TCC Cruise Mode Release MPH Vs. Gear Vs. %TPS
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Thanks, I found that my $EE file is downlevel, that is why I could not find the shift tables. Working on getting that updated now.
How harsh is your lockup using the ON/OFF rather than PWM control?
How harsh is your lockup using the ON/OFF rather than PWM control?
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Now how would I know?
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